A Prayer for Owen Meany by John Irving- DISCUSSION

[gilmorefanalways]

Anti i feel like the same scenes stand out to both you and I
I too was intrigued by what owen said in reference to Johns father give God a little help who would've thought ?

And then about Owen confessing he wasn't sure how he knew things that he just knew
Owen is an enigma I'm desperately trying to understand

[Mistermoonlight]

This chapter has quite a lot of action, and much of it goes in ways you wouldn't predict. There's the incident with Mrs. Lish, Owen's being sent for consultations with Dr Dolder, the discovery of the fake draft cards, the Volkswagen incident, the statue of Mary Magdalene removed from pedestal, and the conflict with Headmaster White.

But Anti's right, the most striking parts of the chapter to me are the dream and Owen's journal entry at the very end.

[AntiArbitrator]

Jan 26, 2013 20:07:08 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

This chapter has quite a lot of action, and much of it goes in ways you wouldn't predict. There's the incident with Mrs. Lish, Owen's being sent for consultations with Dr Dolder, the discovery of the fake draft cards, the Volkswagen incident, the statue of Mary Magdalene removed from pedestal, and the conflict with Headmaster White.

But Anti's right, the most striking parts of the chapter to me are the dream and Owen's journal entry at the very end.

All of those incidents were dramatic and shows Owen is an enigma. The incident with Dr. Dolder’s Volkswagen was funny. I know the basketball players had no problem carrying the car. Picking up and moving the cars was a prank people loved to play on people when the cars first came to America. I really laughed when Headmaster White was stuck in the car and some of the students were jumping over the car instead of going the long way around. Sounds like something I would have done.

I am surprised at how angry Owen was for being put on probation. He was ungrateful to the faculty who supported him because he did not like being censored for speaking his mind. Did anyone else find his reaction to be strange?

I knew Owen was in trouble when Larry Lish told White Owen made the draft cards. For “a 99 lb. weakling”, Owen pulled off a masterful stunt hauling that statue. That was an amazing feat, but Owen seems to gain extraordinary strength at times. I felt it was significant that Owen went to all that trouble to display his message and did not try to see the reaction there would be.

[Mistermoonlight]

Indeed. Some people might call Owen's hefting the statue a miracle. I think that's what Irving is hinting at.

At the end of the chapter we see a prayer being given by Reverend Merril onstage during the 'morning meeting', much to headmaster White's chagrin. Like the valedictory scene with the crowd calling out Owen's name, we get a sense that his classmates feel a bond with him, and are moved to pray for him instead of reacting with laughter or catcalls.

Finally, we see that Owen has been shown in a dream the last of four things: that his voice doesn't change, that he is God's instrument, the date he's going to die, and now, how he's going to die.

It's a very moving journal entry, especially the last part, "I"M GOING TO BE A HERO! I TRUST THAT GOD WILL HELP ME. BECAUSE WHAT I'M SUPPOSED TO DO LOOKS VERY HARD."

I find myself tearing up at that part, because of his bravery and his faith.

[AntiArbitrator]

Thank you for describing those events so beautifully. I believe what Owen accomplished truly was a miracle.

[Mistermoonlight]

I've been thinking of something else,too--wondering whether there is a connection between Tabitha as 'the Woman in Red' and Mary Magdalene.

If you do an image search, Mary Magdalene is quite often shown wearing red, and some believe she had red hair as well.

Is Owen's 'martyring' of the statue, and its subsequent 'resurrection' by him somehow related to Tabitha?

Just a theory I'm playing around with.

[AntiArbitrator]

I did an image search and saw several pictures of Magdalene in red dresses and with very bright red hair. I think your theory is interesting. That connection had not occurred to me, but I will keep it in mind as I continue to read.

[Mistermoonlight]

The following line from Tabitha's death caught my attention in regards to this idea (italics mine):

"The crack of the bat was so unusually sharp and loud for a Little League game that the noise captured even my mother's wandering attention. She turned her head toward home plate—I guess, to see who had hit such a shot—and the ball struck her left temple, spinning her so quickly that one of her high heels broke and she fell forward, facing the stands, her knees splayed apart, her face hitting the ground first because her hands never moved from her sides (not even to break her fall), which later gave rise to the speculation that she was dead before she touched the earth."

Irving later states that the statue appearing armless gave it an air of supplication (as opposed to beseeching), and, by that, made it seem all the more helpless.

[gilmorefanalways]

Its so strange that you mention Tabitha perhaps being metaphorical for Mary Magdalene because about a week ago I had a dream John killed owen which made me curious if other characters in the book were versions of biblical figures. This combined with my dream made me wonder if John was Judas just a speculation.

[Mistermoonlight]

Wow. That's pretty ironic--that a book in which a dream is a central plot point would inspire you to have a dream about it.

In terms of your dream, Judas would be appropriate. I see John as more similar to Thomas.

[gilmorefanalways]

It is very ironic indeed, I agree with you there john has more of thecharacteristics of doubtful thomas but in my dream he seemed a judas its weird he even stabbed owen in the lower rib cage very odd when we read Gatsby i had a dream about that book too im a frequent dreamer

[Mistermoonlight]

I don't normally remember my dreams, but since we've started this book I've had two occasions where I did (in one I could remember the dream, in another I could not, however I did remember that I had dreamed), and that's uncanny.

Owen Meany gets to ya.

[gilmorefanalways]

Indeed he does I'm always thinking of him

[gilmorefanalways]

Looks like my family is stopping by tonight I'm unsure if I'll be able to post tonight maybe I'll end up posting a little later

[Mistermoonlight]

Have fun with your family, Jen.

We'll be practicing the jump shot till you get back.

I'll be here at 6pm EST for the discussion.

I read the current chapter in a two-night frenzy and finished Monday night, so I'm going to go back through it and start getting ready right now.

[AntiArbitrator]

The Finger

First, I would like to admit that I was almost to the end of the chapter before I realized the significance of the title. I guess I was so interested in what was taking place in the chapter that I was not playing a guessing game with the title. I think Owen came up with the idea as a fail-proof way to protect the friend he loved and John demonstrated his trust by going along with Owen’s plan. Owen knew John would procrastinate and not do what needed to be done to stay out of the draft, and he saved John’s life. That is so darn awesome!

[Mistermoonlight]

The penultimate chapter, #9, The Finger

First of all, I love this chapter title because it can be taken two ways. Thanks to Owen, John is in more ways than one giving 'the finger' to the Armed Services about the Viet Nam war.

Also, on my earlier questions about predestination I think we get an answer in this chapter. Owen sees and accepts his vision in the dream, but when he sees John there it bothers him greatly--enough so that he is willing to circumvent the vision in real life so that John cannot possibly be there. What we are talking about, I would offer, isn't predestination, but foreknowledge, and the proof of choice. Owen chooses his own role, but he loves John enough to try and prevent his being anywhere near.

[AntiArbitrator]

Although I never thought of Owen as jovial, I was still a little surprised at his pessimism during his comparison of Marilyn Monroe and our country being tricked by people we thought had integrity. The following stood out to me “WE THINK THEY’RE MORALISTS AND THEN THEY JUST USE US. THAT’S WHAT’S GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU AND ME…WE’RE GOING TO BE USED.” Perhaps that is when Owen came up with his drastic plan to save John.

[Mistermoonlight]

A favorite line.

Adult John talking about his conversations with Noah and Simon: We'll talk about Hester in our graves.

[AntiArbitrator]

Feb 2, 2013 18:12:55 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

The penultimate chapter, #9, The Finger

First of all, I love this chapter title because it can be taken two ways. Thanks to Owen, John is in more ways than one giving 'the finger' to the Armed Services about the Viet Nam war.

Also, on my earlier questions about predestination I think we get an answer in this chapter. Owen sees and accepts his vision in the dream, but when he sees John there it bothers him greatly--enough so that he is willing to circumvent the vision in real life so that John cannot possibly be there. What we see, I would offer, isn't predestination, foreknowledge and the proof of choice. Owen chooses his own role, but he loves John enough to try and prevent his being anywhere near.

I thought about the reason Owen did not prevent himself from going to Viet Nam and I agree that he loved his own role. Owen wanted his life to mean something - really mean something. He wants to be a hero and he is willing to die to carry out that role.

I once thought Owen believed he could not change destiny, but he certainly was willing to try to change destiny for John. Foreknowledge or predestination must be determined by the final outcome.

[AntiArbitrator]

Owen is clever even when he is goofing off at college. When he was criticized that he was not putting forth effort on his assignments, he said he was developing a minimalist style.

I think Owen was interested in only what was important to propel him on his way to his destiny.

[Mistermoonlight]

Feb 2, 2013 18:13:17 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Although I never thought of Owen as jovial, I was still a little surprised at his pessimism during his comparison of Marilyn Monroe and our country being tricked by people we thought had integrity. The following stood out to me “WE THINK THEY’RE MORALISTS AND THEN THEY JUST USE US. THAT’S WHAT’S GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU AND ME…WE’RE GOING TO BE USED.” Perhaps that is when Owen came up with his drastic plan to save John.

I think about this, too. And I think we all know what he's saying. It is the loss of innocence on a personal level when we realize that the heros we look for are only men, and not some idealized version of humanity that we may have hoped for or believed were above us. The terrible secret is that they are just like us, with some of our same weaknesses, but still kept their eyes on something bigger.

Marilyn, I think, is even larger than her legend, because, as Owen pointed out, just look at her choices in studying. bettering herself, appreciation of knowledge, and her choice of husbands. She, as Owen, on some level was seeking something higher. But there are those among us, particularly amongst the creative, who seem to feel and suffer more. In terms of history, it does seem she was used. As we all were in this period.





They are both heroes in my book. She is 'a candle in the wind,' whereas JFK has the eternal flame. I don't know if that's fair or not, but what I do know is this, there are some who are too beautiful for this world. And thank God for them.

Owen is right, though. It has to do with all of us.

I think one of the themes of this novel is that we are all connected and the actions we take or don't take make up our society. Owen would say that what you do counts, I think.

[Mistermoonlight]

Feb 2, 2013 18:13:17 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Although I never thought of Owen as jovial, I was still a little surprised at his pessimism during his comparison of Marilyn Monroe and our country being tricked by people we thought had integrity. The following stood out to me “WE THINK THEY’RE MORALISTS AND THEN THEY JUST USE US. THAT’S WHAT’S GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU AND ME…WE’RE GOING TO BE USED.” Perhaps that is when Owen came up with his drastic plan to save John.

I think this is a really great insight as to Owen's motivation. The hero who is disillusioned yet still retains the moral insight of what is right and wrong, well, you can't get much higher than that, can you?

The world is crazy, Owen seems to be saying, but we have a feeling that Owen has never stopped listening to the voice he hears within.

We are actually getting into the realm of the antihero here:

[AntiArbitrator]

Feb 2, 2013 19:19:34 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

I think this is a really great insight as to Owen's motivation. The hero who is disillusioned yet still retains the moral insight of what is right and wrong, well, you can't get much higher than that, can you?

The world is crazy, Owen seems to be saying, but we have a feeling that Owen has never stopped listening to the voice he hears within.

Absolutely, Owen never stopped listening. I admire him for seeing what was real, stating the truth as he saw it, and continuing on his path. He did not "give up" because his personal heroes failed to meet his standards. It was important for him to meet his own standards and often that can be difficult for most of us.

Edit: I need to watch the video.

[Mistermoonlight]

I can almost see Owen as Joan of Arc.

I envy his insight and clear channel. I'm more scientific than he and less of a believer. But he makes me want to be one, just as he did with John.

Oh, yes, that name John. It has more than a little to do with Christianity, doesn't it?

[AntiArbitrator]

Feb 2, 2013 19:34:22 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

I can almost see Owen as Joan of Arc.

I envy his insight and clear channel. I'm more scientific than he and less of a believer. But he makes me want to be one, just as he did with John.

Oh, yes, that name John. It has more than a little to do with Christianity, doesn't it?

I can see Owen as a martyr who would smile as he goes up in flames. Ah...to have such faith that what one is doing is the right thing to do!

The name John, although popular, never seemed random to me.

Is it ironic that Owen's hero was also named John? The murder of President Kennedy affected Owen even more drastically than the death of Marilyn Monroe. Perhaps Kennedy was still Owen’s hero even though he was not ethical by Owen’s standards. I wonder if Kennedy’s death provoked fear about the recurring dream Owen had because that is when he started spending much more time with Rev. Merrill.

[AntiArbitrator]

When Owen made the shot in under 3 seconds and said that was good enough, it occurred to me that there is a specific purpose to the drill that might have something to do with his heroism, perhaps having to dive or jump in 3 seconds to save someone. I don’t know that, of course, but three seconds was very important to Owen and he never said why.

[AntiArbitrator]

I laughed when Owen made John admit that he absolutely knew the statue of Mary Magdalene was still there even though he could not see her. Owen told him that now he knew how Owen felt about God.
***

I wondered how it felt to have a friend that is not exactly of this world like everyone else. John answered that partially when he described one of his strange encounters with Owen. When they did discuss the dream and Owen got a certain calmness about him, John admitted that sometimes he felt Owen was not quite human and it did scare him.

[AntiArbitrator]

When Charlie Keeling referred to John as a “nonpracticing homosexual”, my only thought was please don’t let John be in love with Owen. Then, when the two of them were alone in the Monument Shop and Owen told John to look into his eyes, my heart soared. This was love that gave courage when it was needed and faith that your friend would never hurt you. “I LOVE YOU. NOTHING BAD IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU—TRUST ME.”*** “JUST THINK OF THIS AS MY LITTLE GIFT TO YOU.” Owen certainly had a way with words.

[Mistermoonlight]

Feb 2, 2013 19:44:52 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Feb 2, 2013 19:34:22 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

I can almost see Owen as Joan of Arc.

I envy his insight and clear channel. I'm more scientific than he and less of a believer. But he makes me want to be one, just as he did with John.

Oh, yes, that name John. It has more than a little to do with Christianity, doesn't it?

I can see Owen as a martyr who would smile as he goes up in flames. Ah...to have such faith that what one is doing is the right thing to do!

The name John, although popular, never seemed random to me.

Is it ironic that Owen's hero was also named John? The murder of President Kennedy affected Owen even more drastically than the death of Marilyn Monroe. Perhaps Kennedy was still Owen’s hero even though he was not ethical by Owen’s standards. I wonder if Kennedy’s death provoked fear about the recurring dream Owen had because that is when he started spending much more time with Rev. Merrill.

Great point. There's more than one John there.

And I'd say that Owen has managed to win over almost all of the folks who had a lesser view of him by now, including Mrs. Wheelwright, Pastor Fineley, and Rev. Merrill.