MIA - Sam's storyline and POV

[ravanne]

I'm sure that this post is going to annoy some here (don't really care about that), but this is a rant that I need to get off my chest.

I make no bones about the fact that while I consider myself bi-bro, Sam is my particular favorite. I don't apologize for that or for choosing Jared as my favorite actor in the cast. Nor do I apologize for the fact that I am particularly sensitive to the apparent neglect of Sam's storyline and my anger that Sam's POV has been given nearly no focus in several seasons now. I know that there will be those that disagree with me, but it became pretty clear that somewhere along the line, Sam has been reduced in the writers eyes from being a character in his own right to a plot device where what happens to Sam is only of importance if it affects Dean in a negative manner.

This began in season 4 and has never really shifted back. I would expect that a huge part of the focus of season 4 would be on Dean and his experiences in Hell (as it should be), but the imbalance was especially pronounced there. Given the closeness of the Winchesters, what affects one does (understandably) affect the other. But unlike this season, where Sam's experiences in Hell are seen mostly as how they negatively affect Dean, it did not play out that way in season 4. Dean going to Hell would (understandably) affect Sam in a deeply negative manner but that wasn't examined until very late in the season, and then only briefly.Sam was seen initially to have just gone on with his life, hunting, going to movies and when Dean first found him, having a girl in his room. The devastation that was hinted would follow Dean's death in MS seemed to get swept under the rug and any hint of Sam doing something "normal" while Dean was in Hell was met with anger from both Dean and the fandom. It was used to hammer home the idea that Sam cared less about Dean than Dean did (and thus planted the seed of the idea that Sam was not deserving of Dean's love and consideration).

There was no examination of why Sam might have fallen prey to Ruby's manipulations until late in the season, and then it was done in five minutes of flashbacks that were stripped of any emotional weight by Dean's pithy remarks about not needing the nudity in Sam's recollections. Dean showed little, if any, concern about what his death did to Sam, whether it was the self-destructive drinking or the fact that Sam was trying to sell himself to whatever demon might be willing to make a deal if it would get Dean back. None of that mattered to Dean, and thus it didn't matter to a large portion of the audience. Sam was unfairly tarred with being a selfish and uncaring individual because the audience wasn't given any reason to believe otherwise. You still have a very significant portion of the audience that sees Sam's motivations in season 4 rooted in selfishness and hunger for power rather than being devastated over losing his brother.

It began a troubling trend of things being important only if they affected Dean in some manner. Mystery Spot is the gold standard for episodes focusing on Sam's POV and even that was in the end made more about Dean than Sam. When facing off against Gabriel/the Trickster in Changing Channels, the events of MS were remarked upon by Dean - he was angry that Gabriel killed him a few dozen times for chuckles. No indication at all that the events of that episode were focused squarely on Sam and trying to teach Sam an important lesson. No indication that Sam was the one left with lasting mental scars as a result. Dean was angry because he was the one repeatedly killed and brought back (with no real memory of his repeated "deaths"). The impact that episode had on Sam? Not worth a mention.

When it came to Castiel's introduction into the story line, it was all about its relationship with Dean. And started a trend where all allied characters that the brothers interacted with were focused primarily on Dean. Bobby might have been a surrogate father to the both of them, but he admitted in YCHTT that Dean was his favorite. In the Mentalists, Ellen's spirit communicated with Dean to encourage him, but there was no mention at all of Sam, his experiences and the trauma peculating in his brain. When episodes end and we get those touching moments with the people they save, those moments are almost exclusively Dean interacting with those that they help, even if Sam was the one who solved the mystery or ultimately saved the target. There has been no one since Ruby for whom Sam was the primary figure that they interacted through, or who had the primary figure of importance to. Sherriff Jody comes pretty close since Sam is the first one that she's interacted with since Bobby's death. But There has been no one who's called Sam their "favorite" or placed him first in their consideration.

We now are in the season where the emotional focus was supposed to be evenly split on both the brothers dealing with their emotional scars and yet again, it is all about Dean in every capacity. Even Bobby himself made that clear when he painted Sam's circumstances as being less important that Dean's emotional strain. For the majority of the season, what has happened to Sam seemed to matter only because it was adversely affecting Dean. Dean had to deal with Castiel's betrayal, Bobby's death, feeling lost and adrift and worrying that Sam was going to lose his sanity. Sam's issues? They couldn't even be primarily about what the hell memories were doing to him. After the second episode, they were only brought up indirectly. We'd see Sam rubbing his hand or trying to keep busy, but that was it. It wasn't until Repo Man that we got a direct look at what Sam was dealing with on a daily basis. It's a marked contrast to season 4, where everything was about Dean because Dean was the one who'd been to hell and was dealing with those memories. Sam had no real part in that. But Dean is tied in so tightly with what there is of Sam's story that more often than not, it's more about Dean than Sam himself.

So here we are with only 8 episodes left in the season, and none of the spoilers indicate anything major breaking on Sam's storyline except Dean having to institutionalizing him. The spoilers then shift completely to how Dean is handling trying to help Sam. Nothing about Sam himself is going through. Nothing about his fears and hopes and trauma. It's about Dean trying to save Sam and dealing with Castiel. Sam's story is now there only to serve Dean's. Any hoped that some of us might have had of getting some real focus on just what is going on with Sam, and how all this has affected his POV and hopes for his future are pretty well dashed.

This used to be a show about two main characters. Sam might have been the heart of the mytharc part of the stroyline, but Dean had his own focus as the heart of the hunter storyline. Both brothers got focus on their respective POVs. Now the storyline is firmly on Dean and we are lucky if we get one episode a season that focuses firmly on Sam. It's becoming harder for those of us who love Sam and want to see his storyline explored to stand.

Sorry if this rambled a bit, but I really needed to get this out. Make of it what you will. I'm not expecting to change any minds here.

[1027phoenix]

Yes! Everything you have said is why I'm having a hard time staying interested in SPN. When one of the two main characters is ignored as Sam has been it's hard to watch. Since Sam is the reason for me to have watched in the past, is there really any reason to continue to watch? I have grave doubts that I can continue to watch this show.

[isitfridayyet]

*sobs* I had an excellent response to this..but effing proboards crashed and I lost it.

Good post Ravanne!

[isitfridayyet]

A good post, Ravanne, and sadly...true. While we can see that the POV between the brothers has been unfairly weighted, it seems the writers can not. Apparently, they believe that "some" Sammy POV should be enough to satisfy us. Dean is the one with the most pressing internal conflicts - while Sammy gets the myth arc. It's undeniable. Those who would reply to your post and call you a whiner and say that what you say isn't true clearly are not watching the show with a bi-bro critical lens. It's not balanced. Plain and simple.

That being said, I am pessimistic that this will ever change, just as I am pessimistic that Sam/Cas will have any substantial interaction aside from maybe a "thanks for healing me" or "good to have you back" moment in the upcoming episodes. I've resolved that I probably won't get my heart felt apology to Sammy from Cas. He will only apologize to Dean because Dean's angsting will demand it of him while Sam will stand in the background, counting cracks in the wall because no one cares what he thinks about any of it. After the mental institution, I suspect he'll take up jogging again and be totally fine. Because Sammy is empathetic, he doesn't deserve an apology, right? He's good. Instead, we'll see how Dean feels.

I'm not bashing Dean's character either. There's nothing wrong with the fact that he has a lot of internal struggles. Just like there's nothing wrong with the fact that I sometimes journal to vent my anger/frustration. Still, if I was a character in a TV show, and all the writers did was show me journaling and huffing every episode, it would get old fast. That's what's happening here. I don't mind a peek at Dean's angsting every now and then. Hell, I would even like to see it come to a head a few times during a season..but I'm also interested in what Sam is thinking/feeling. After 7.2, everything is peachy keen for Sammy - or so the audience sees. Then Repo Man comes around and we see that Lucifer is CONSTANTLY there talking to him. Why are we just now finding that out towards the seasons end?

*sigh*

Edit:: NOT LOST! *squeee*

[anicat]

Ravanne, that is a brilliant post! Absolutely brilliant. Says exactly what I feel about how Sam seems more a satellite character in the totality of the story, a satellite that revolves around Dean and not a central character unto himself in recent seasons.

I know we could only have so much Mark P booked, but there has to have been other ways to give us insight to Sam's Cage experience, right? And barring that, how it is affecting him now...no extra budget need be set aside for Cage effects with that. So we've got maybe a total of 1 1/2 eps of insight, and a bare sprinkle of visual shots or brief one-sentence mentions and that's it for an event that has such major impact on the character.

I love Dean...I really do, we share a surprising amount of life issues in common. But for the "brotherly relationship" everyone always talks about I only seem to be getting half of the story: Dean's half. And as much as I love Dean, I've really gotten sufficient insight to his side of things, and it makes me feel the tiniest bit of resentment that the writers continue to concentrate on him and leave Sam sidelined.

And Friday, dittoes to your post too! Where you say about how seeing the same thing every episode gets old fast: I couldn't agree with you more. It was the reason I stopped watching "House" years back...a character mired in aggression, addiction and misery every single episode and never grows past that quickly gets to be so boring and I lose interest and change the channel. Dean needs to move forward in his story, and Sam needs to have his story become re-integrated into the episodes & season.

Thanks for this thread Ravanne, it gave me a chance to vent too!

[isitfridayyet]

Yes, Ani, Yes!! I too have been wondering where the brotherly bond went! The writers advertised that it would be the boys against the world this season. Cas "died", Bobby "died" and virtually aside from Frank, they don't really have anyone else but each other. Fine, but why do I only know how Dean feels about it? How does SAM feel about losing Castiel? How does SAM feel about Bobby's death? How does SAM feel about Dean's constant angsting? The ONLY positive I was holding onto this season was the chance of Sammy getting some further POV. I was thinking that if Cas is gone, at least I can get more SAM! Instead, I'm watching Dean have his man period all season and Sam press his hand.

Now I'm going to be selfish for a minute. It's no secret to anyone here that I was ELATED at the announcement of Castiel's return, but I'm off put by the more negative than usual response by some fans. I expected back lash, really I did. Not everyone loves Cas..and I get that..but seriously people are OUTRAGED. I can see why. I'm so mad at the writers for failing epically with Sam and then bringing Cas back during his promised time. How could I expect his return to be well received by sam girls and bi-bro fans? All it does is diminish the chances that Sam will have ANY POV this season because people are worried that Cas is going to come in and steal the spot light.

Ideally, I'd like the majority of fans to like Castiel, and if they can't, to at least tolerate him being there, but due to this ATROCIOUS writing for Sam, some fans will NEVER like him. He will always be another distraction from Sam and he will NEVER be written to support SAM's character development as opposed to Dean's. So, to my own selfish purposes, I am pissed at the writers for failing this season with Sam and basically demolishing ANY chance that the Cas hate will subside. I love Sam and was so excited to see this Lucifer storyline play out. I was also ready for Sam girls and bi-bro fans to get some of that POV they so badly needed to ease their frustrations. But no, we get neither. We only get the Dean Winchester show with returning homewrecker Castiel to further piss off the fandom.

Ah. Venting is nice. Feel better now.

[ravanne]

isitfridayyet - I didn't start off hating Castiel. I thought it was an interesting premise, bringing angels into the storyline since this is a show that focuses on the supernatural. It seemed somewhat logical that if we were going to see demons, that angels would come into play to at least a small degree. But what began to distress me was what Castiel's presence did to the show and more importantly, what it brought to the relationship between Sam and Dean. And I hated what some of Castiel's fans began to say about Sam and his presence on the show. In one season, you had one of the two central characters marginalized and maligned in a way continues to this day. When you have some Castiel fans saying straight out that not only did they prefer Castiel to Sam (and everyone is entitled to have their favorites), they argued that Sam's place in the show and in Dean's life was now replaced by Sam. That they wanted to see Dean partner with Castiel exclusively and that Sam could be removed from the show altogether.

I also hated that every mistake and misdeed made by Sam was held up as a reason to repeatedly pummel him, and used as an example why Castiel was a better partner for Dean, while Castiel's misdeeds were completely ignored. I have no issues with liking a character, but at least accept that that character also made mistakes and caused enormous harm.

Season 4 was a huge miscalculation on the part of the show runners in a number of ways. I understand that they wanted to keep Sam's activities somewhat mysterious so they could keep the motives of all the characters around Dean questionable so that the viewers couldn't quite be sure of what was really happening up until the very end. What happened as a result was that Sam's POV was completely divorced from the storyline and we had no window into why Sam was now doing these questionable things. All the audience saw was Sam teamed up with a demon and seemingly aligned against his brother. The fact that Castiel was not acting our of concern for Dean's benefit and cause just as much harm (if not more) to Dean than Sam did was ignored not just by the audience, but by the writers as well. Dean never got a full accounting of Castiel's actions, such as releasing Sam from the panic room, while every single thing that Sam did was there to be criticized. That turned me against Castiel more than anything else. Sam continues to be the one found lacking despite his genuine remorse for his mistakes and the enormous sacrifice he's made. He didn't just get Dean's forgiveness. He had to fight for it and earn it, and Dean did not make it easy on Sam. The idea that Castiel should just be forgiven for all that it has done, from season 4 through now and never owned up to or make genuine effort to atone for is repugnant to me. Especially given the treatment that Sam has received.

POV is critical for a character, because it allows the audience to see the character's motivations from their perspective and gain some understanding as to why they made the choices that they did. Because Sam's POV has been nearly completely absent for going on three seasons now, the audience has no way to really understand why Sam made the choices that he did. All they see is that Dean didn't approve of Sam's actions, and without Sam's POV to balance that, judged Sam harshly as a result. Dean's perspective was the only one shown, and therefore for the writers and a significant portion of the audience, the only one that mattered.

And guess what folks? Dean isn't always right! Dean makes huge mistakes of his own. He made the miscalculation about killing Amy Pond without Sam's input (since Sam was the one that had the strongest relationship with her) and then lied to Sam for weeks after the fact. Dean ignored the warnings that something wasn't right with Castiel's behavior in season 6. Dean shut out the input of Bobby and Sam through most of seasons 4 and 5, isolating him from anyone that might argue against what the angels were trying to manipulate Dean into doing. But because we only see Dean's POV most of the time, he is the only one who's motives and concerns matter. And I'm afraid that because this has gone on as long as it has that the damage might be irreparable.

Castiel's return at this point in the season is awful because even if everything Castiel and Dean do is about Sam, Sam again is divorced from any agency in his own storyline. Sam is a cause, a goal and an objective. Not a character in his own right with his own dreams, hopes and aspirations. The fact that we've gone from season 1 Sam, who had dreams of a life outside of hunting, maintaining his friendships and bonds that he developed with others to the Sam we have now who has no hope for any future except as hunter (if he survives what breaking the wall and done to him), and we haven't seen this clear progression from Sam's perspective is a major failing of the show. And the hypocrisy of Sam's desire for a normal life in the early seasons constantly painted as selfish while Dean's similar desire in the later seasons was painted as sympathetic really shows this imbalance.

This show has two amazing lead characters and the fact that the writers find themselves incapable of giving both proper focus is one of SPN's greatest flaws. The balance of the show is very badly askew and shows no sign of ever righting itself. And when the show runners make it clear that they are only paying attention to one segment of the audience, I don't see any evidence of this ever resolving. Sam's storyline of having been in Lucifer's cage should have been the primary focus this season (alongside the Leviathan storyline). This was one time when Dean's issues should have rightly taken a back seat to what was happening with Sam. But we've had no focus on Sam for most of the season, and very clear indications that Sam's POV will again be given little focus in favor of focusing on Dean and Castiel.

I still very much love this show, but sometimes they make it very hard for me to remember what drew me to it.

[SoCal]

If you're finding it hard to remember what drew you to watch this show in the first place, I seriously doubt you were ever a real fan.

In my opinion, a REAL fan of the show doesn't latch on to a single character and hate it when stories involve or center on other characters which are as much a part of the story as the character they seem to be obsessed with.

Do I like EVERY decision the writers/producers/creators have made regarding the path the general story has taken? NO! But I will continue to watch and enjoy the show each week and not let myself be sidetracked by every perceived slight or sidetrack each character takes or is given by the writers.

Anyone obsessed with a single character is NEVER going to be able to fully enjoy the show and should probably spend their time watching re-runs of season 1.

[jensenRick]

Mar 15, 2012 9:49:17 GMT -5 ravanne said:

isitfridayyet - I didn't start off hating Castiel. I thought it was an interesting premise, bringing angels into the storyline since this is a show that focuses on the supernatural. It seemed somewhat logical that if we were going to see demons, that angels would come into play to at least a small degree. But what began to distress me was what Castiel's presence did to the show and more importantly, what it brought to the relationship between Sam and Dean. And I hated what some of Castiel's fans began to say about Sam and his presence on the show. In one season, you had one of the two central characters marginalized and maligned in a way continues to this day. When you have some Castiel fans saying straight out that not only did they prefer Castiel to Sam (and everyone is entitled to have their favorites), they argued that Sam's place in the show and in Dean's life was now replaced by Sam. That they wanted to see Dean partner with Castiel exclusively and that Sam could be removed from the show altogether.

I also hated that every mistake and misdeed made by Sam was held up as a reason to repeatedly pummel him, and used as an example why Castiel was a better partner for Dean, while Castiel's misdeeds were completely ignored. I have no issues with liking a character, but at least accept that that character also made mistakes and caused enormous harm.

Season 4 was a huge miscalculation on the part of the show runners in a number of ways. I understand that they wanted to keep Sam's activities somewhat mysterious so they could keep the motives of all the characters around Dean questionable so that the viewers couldn't quite be sure of what was really happening up until the very end. What happened as a result was that Sam's POV was completely divorced from the storyline and we had no window into why Sam was now doing these questionable things. All the audience saw was Sam teamed up with a demon and seemingly aligned against his brother. The fact that Castiel was not acting our of concern for Dean's benefit and cause just as much harm (if not more) to Dean than Sam did was ignored not just by the audience, but by the writers as well. Dean never got a full accounting of Castiel's actions, such as releasing Sam from the panic room, while every single thing that Sam did was there to be criticized. That turned me against Castiel more than anything else. Sam continues to be the one found lacking despite his genuine remorse for his mistakes and the enormous sacrifice he's made. He didn't just get Dean's forgiveness. He had to fight for it and earn it, and Dean did not make it easy on Sam. The idea that Castiel should just be forgiven for all that it has done, from season 4 through now and never owned up to or make genuine effort to atone for is repugnant to me. Especially given the treatment that Sam has received.

POV is critical for a character, because it allows the audience to see the character's motivations from their perspective and gain some understanding as to why they made the choices that they did. Because Sam's POV has been nearly completely absent for going on three seasons now, the audience has no way to really understand why Sam made the choices that he did. All they see is that Dean didn't approve of Sam's actions, and without Sam's POV to balance that, judged Sam harshly as a result. Dean's perspective was the only one shown, and therefore for the writers and a significant portion of the audience, the only one that mattered.

And guess what folks? Dean isn't always right! Dean makes huge mistakes of his own. He made the miscalculation about killing Amy Pond without Sam's input (since Sam was the one that had the strongest relationship with her) and then lied to Sam for weeks after the fact. Dean ignored the warnings that something wasn't right with Castiel's behavior in season 6. Dean shut out the input of Bobby and Sam through most of seasons 4 and 5, isolating him from anyone that might argue against what the angels were trying to manipulate Dean into doing. But because we only see Dean's POV most of the time, he is the only one who's motives and concerns matter. And I'm afraid that because this has gone on as long as it has that the damage might be irreparable.

Castiel's return at this point in the season is awful because even if everything Castiel and Dean do is about Sam, Sam again is divorced from any agency in his own storyline. Sam is a cause, a goal and an objective. Not a character in his own right with his own dreams, hopes and aspirations. The fact that we've gone from season 1 Sam, who had dreams of a life outside of hunting, maintaining his friendships and bonds that he developed with others to the Sam we have now who has no hope for any future except as hunter (if he survives what breaking the wall and done to him), and we haven't seen this clear progression from Sam's perspective is a major failing of the show. And the hypocrisy of Sam's desire for a normal life in the early seasons constantly painted as selfish while Dean's similar desire in the later seasons was painted as sympathetic really shows this imbalance.

This show has two amazing lead characters and the fact that the writers find themselves incapable of giving both proper focus is one of SPN's greatest flaws. The balance of the show is very badly askew and shows no sign of ever righting itself. And when the show runners make it clear that they are only paying attention to one segment of the audience, I don't see any evidence of this ever resolving. Sam's storyline of having been in Lucifer's cage should have been the primary focus this season (alongside the Leviathan storyline). This was one time when Dean's issues should have rightly taken a back seat to what was happening with Sam. But we've had no focus on Sam for most of the season, and very clear indications that Sam's POV will again be given little focus in favor of focusing on Dean and Castiel.

I still very much love this show, but sometimes they make it very hard for me to remember what drew me to it.

Several excellent posts to an excellent thread, Ravanne. I totally agree with every word.

I've often wondered if it might be a case of Jared's charisma working against him. I, perhaps generously, hope that the writers who know Jared can't even imagine that a major portion of the fandom would turn against Sam because of the way that they write him, and therefore have no problem turning him from what was, in S1&S2, one of the most forthright characters to someone whose motives and direction are almost constantly, on purpose, made shadowy, vague and disputed.

I HAVE to believe that they just don't understand how much HATE they have created for Sam out in the fandom, because the only alternative is- they just don't care.

I can't imagine going to that forum that Lemongrover mentioned in the other thread, it was bad enough dealing with hermitme on the yahoogroups. Sad to say, but the unfair double standard that Sam is held to by so many, just upsets me so much, I'm sure I would lose sleep if I read the comments over there.

[lemongrover]

Very interesting thread!! I agree with so much you guys have said!! I'm going to share my thoughts, but please understand, I'm still shaky about Dean, so it might come out a little harsh about Dean in some parts. I'm sorry if it upsets someone.

The show has been unbalanced for some time. Heck, some of the books are unbalanced and told from Dean's point of view. (But I've only read two books, but it bother me.) It's a common complain. Dean has the emotional story, POV and Sam has the mythology. Hell, I've since a bully-Dean fan even admit that the POV is more Dean focus and this season is Dean-centric. When the bitch-bullies of the fandom can make sense, then there is something wrong. It's a complain that I've seen Dean fans, Sam fans, Castiel fans, and bi-brothers fans make. It's been the topic of discussion in a lot of different places (Spoilertv, Supernatural.tv,IMDB, article comment sections) . I have read Dean fans saying they would gladly give up some of Dean's point of view for a good connected special mythology story and the Sam fans have said they would give up some up Sam's plots for more point of view. The thing is this shouldn't be a wish. This should be the show. Both characters should have relevance. Both characters should have point of view. But the more troubling fact, is that if this is something that is such a common topic of discussion on for years, then how can the show claim to read the fan opinion, but nothing has changed?

This is something that has been discussion since the fifth season. It was a huge wish for the sixth season and a major topic of discussion. Here, we are with the same trouble. Why is something that seems so simple to fix something that goes unnoticed? I really don't understand how the writers can say they read what they fans write and not know about this problem. Do they not see what the fans fight over? On the fourth season commentary, Eric Kripke discussed what fans said about Ruby and how we hated her. So, are they just now immune to what fans say? Have they just turned us all into Beckys in their minds and just chuckling and toss the opinions aside? Why? Maybe they don't care anymore. I think they have reach the point when they just have accepted that they can't please everyone. But I think they have also reach the point where they find it fun to fuck with the fans. I know. It's a crude and vulgar way of thinking about the writers. But then why manufacture drama like Amy and Emma? The show has lost its heart in some ways. Because the writers have stopped caring. They have lost a lot of writers who kept the emotions and heart in the story. Now, they just want a harsh, depressing, violent, and bloody world. They have lost sight that the show is about family. There is no more balance. One brother is has no voice and one brother has a depression to nowhere.

I know Castiel's return is controversial. For some fans, it's a long time coming and for other fans, it just rubs lemon juice into salted wounds. And both the Cas fans and Sam fans are right. I think both of them, Sam and Castiel, have been mistreated. But especially, in the last few seasons.

First, Castiel is dropped from the first half of the sixth season. Then he periodically comes and in out of sixth season. Then he is forced to go Darkside at a drop of a storyline last season. Then he walks into the middle of a lake with the producers' promise of a return. He's mention occasionally throughout the season. And now, seventeen episodes into the season and it looks like not only is everything forgotten and his Darkside story falling to the wayside with no consequences. He'll instantly heal Sam and return to his post as Dean's call-angel.

Then, there is Sam. Sam has been cut off at the knees since the fourth season. When he stopped being treated as a character and became a plot point. When was the last time Sam just spent more than ten episodes just being Sam? This season Sam's story has been erratic at best. Sam's story has been dropped and picked up to remind the audience when it is convenient. Now, at moment finally when Sam's story could be told, it's gone before it even started. Dean and Castiel go off on their quest and Sam is stuck in a hospital? Will we get to see much of Sam? So, far things look bleak. But we could be surprised.

Neither character is being treated well or used properly. Why couldn't they have there own episodes? Why did Castiel have to leave if nothing was going to matter? Why have him go evil in the first place? Why break Sam's wall if you were never going to show the story? Why not just have it disappear behind the wall? Why do Sam and Castiel have to revolve around the existence of Dean? Why can't Sam have a friend outside the brotherhood? Why does Castiel always have to be at the mercy of Dean? Why can't Sam and Castiel have scenes and friendship?

I know it's not a popular opinion, but Jared and Misha's chemistry to me is more versatile than Jensen and Misha's. I know. But Jensen and Misha appear like they're the middle of a lovers spat way too much for my taste. It's the same scene. At the beginning of the fourth season, it was an interesting dynamic, but once Castiel fell, it became the same scene. Castiel stands too closely to Dean, Dean says something snarky about Castiel's lack of humanity, Castiel looks hurt, they exchange words, look at each other, and then Dean demands for Castiel to do something, Castiel says he will and exits, end scene. It's the same. But Sam and Castiel have few scenes together, but they're different. The first solo scene they have together, it's quick and antagonistic. Then they have another scene in which you think they'll about to rip each others heads off. Then that changes Castiel and Sam have a scene in which it's funny and friend-like. They can go head to head one moment and then look like two friends trying to help and support each other. Dean's the one who makes snarky comments and Sam's the one who defends Castiel half the time. I don't know, but Dean and Castiel's friendship seems to be based more on Dean bossing Castiel around. But Sam and Castiel have few moments but they're either calling each other out on their crap or helping each other out. Why is it that Sam treats Castiel more like a man than the "profound bond" relationship? Why can't they have a friendship? It wouldn't destroy Dean and Castiel's.

Still, there hasn't be much focus this season. I'm beginning to think maybe, with the expectation of Lisa and Ben, season sixth had more of story. At least we knew more about the monsters at this point than this season. I'm not sure. Dean's depression is fairly consistent and shown. It's ridiculous that it hasn't gone anywhere and it's just on replay. Causing the Dean fans to get upset as well. Not all fans are upset over these issues. But there are groups of fans that are growing more and more restless and turning on each other to get out their frustrations. Strangely, in my experience, the Dean fans are the nastiest about their complaints. But then again, Sam and Castiel actually have stories and Dean is just sad. Still, some Dean fans are enjoying seeing this much of Dean's story and others hate it. It's odd that sections of the fandom want what they others have.

However, Dean is the one who is right all time (Ruby, Angels, Castiel, Sam, demon blood, trusting Crowley, Lucifer, the Campbells, Lisa and Ben, Soulless Sam, not trusting Crowley, Castiel again, Amy, and Emma). Dean gets to have conversations with other characters (Melanie, Dick Roman, Krissy) or helped by (Bobby, Ellen, Frank, Elliot Ness). The isolation of Sam and Castiel has been happening ever since the fourth season. The huge factor being Dean's point of view being the one shown the most.

However, I don't think Castiel joining the show is the reason for Sam's point of view disappearance. It's correlated, but it's not the cause. There are some Castiel fans who want Sam off the show, but I think the majority of Castiel fans respect Sam and Dean's relationship. Castiel came into the show at point where the writers should have been developing Sam's story, but instead they focused on too many fillers and stuff we already know. In the fifth season, what happened to Sam was never address. There was never a moment where we saw how Sam start drinking demon blood or why. There was never a moment addressing how Sam felt about being the vessel or Ruby. And "Fallen Idols" is used as way to say Sam just shift the blame to Dean, but you don't see any more about Sam, so you don't know. Tons of Dean angst. Fans use the lack of Sam point of view to show how bad of guy he is, but how can you say that when you don't know what's really going on in his head. This lack of point of view continues to cut Sam off at the knees and gives them fuel. People like constant. And at least Dean's sadness is constant, but it hurts Sam, because it makes it look like Sam is the jerk who doesn't care because Dean never improves. Instead of a guy with concern for his brother who doesn't know what to and has his own issues to handle. Sam is so hidden that people can interpret him tons of different ways and fans who are annoyed and resent Dean's stories being cut take it out on Sam. I read one comment saying they could handle the terrible writing for Sam, if Dean was written better. I don't agree. You should want good writing for both of them, not just your favorite. But that's just me.

I think the underdevelopment of both Castiel and Sam has hurt their characters. Castiel has never been given the chance to develop outside of Dean. Even in the two season he was a regular, he was still only helping Dean and Sam. We didn't see anything he did in the apocalypse outside the Winchesters or learn how he felt about becoming more and more human. Then the war in Heaven happened offscreen and then he is given one episode to explain everything, but either it is seen as the worst sob-story episode or it makes the Winchester and Bobby look like hypocrites. Yeah, at least he was given a sympathetic episode to explain himself, but we really shouldn't have to have serious sympathetic episodes to explain characters. And Sam, well, it would be nice just to have an episode from his point of view like Castiel and Bobby did. And have it solely about him, but I think I have more of a chance of someone handing me my degree in psychology tomorrow than seeing that happen this season.

It is possible to write a good story without hiding character's motives. It's called dramatic irony and many shows and books use it. Look at Buffy, every season you had Buffy's point of view, you even had Xander, Willow, and Giles point of view despite it being supporting character, and you saw what the bad guys were up to (1st: the Master, 2nd: Spike, Drusilla, and Angelus, 3rd: the Mayor and Faith, 4th: the Initiative, 5th: Glory, 6th: the nerd trio, 7th: the first). It's possible to have characters there for their own reasons and have their point of view. The show will still be about the Winchester if you give Sam and Castiel a voice, especially Sam. Sam can have friends and dreams. Developing their characters would have helped. The show might not be able to fix Castiel (I think it's possible). But they need to develop Sam's POV! Sam should be able to stand on his own with other characters. Given Dean something to do with plot, get him out of the driver's seat and give Sam a chance to show his thoughts and have other characters care about him! Maybe it would help bring hope back into the show.

Mar 15, 2012 12:29:58 GMT -5 jensenRick said:

I can't imagine going to that forum that Lemongrover mentioned in the other thread, it was bad enough dealing with hermitme on the yahoogroups. Sad to say, but the unfair double standard that Sam is held to by so many, just upsets me so much, I'm sure I would lose sleep if I read the comments over there.

The double standard is amazing. They kept calling Sam "special snowflake" or "wobble Sam," but ironically, they are the first ones to complain when someone calls Dean a dick or Sam says he is a jerk, or someone saying "boo-hoo" to Dean. And how they want Dean who is the important one and real hero to have a story because he is so unique and special. Sam is an idiot and Ben Edlund knows that by writing Lucifer in such a way that Sam could have figure all that on his own (I guess they don't understand the whole hallucinations concept). It was amazing to see how much hate and their double standards. It was Hell on the Internet. And I did lose sleep over it. They twisted everything to fit their Sam hate. I've seen Destiel and Wincest fans do that, but they at least love the show!

I can't get it out of my head. I know it's only a minority, but the fact that there are thirty to forty people out there who think that it is okay to be that cruel and nasty about a fictional character and I have something in common with them makes me wonder about what that says about myself. I can't help but wonder if I'm letting people like that affect the way I see Dean. I have seen some nasty stuff said about all the characters, but not to this level, yet, they acted like these victims. The mod who unregistered my friend in an email said it was because of the resentment of Eric and Sera's bias towards Sam. And that it "might improve" when Dean gets to be special, but for now there is too much "distrust and anger." They're angry and distrust the show? So, you take it out on a character? How about you stop watching and writing about it? Find something that doesn't make you so angry that isn't the point of entertainment. I might have my problems with the show, but that doesn't out weigh my enjoyment, yet. (Lately, I'm more disgusted with some fans online than the show. I know I would enjoy the show a lot better if I gave up on reading online comments, but it's hard to, because they are conversations like this that I enjoy reading so much!)

I'm pissed because my friend had to go through that. Kabbie didn't deserve that. Especially, since what the mod said was a bit of a joke. Fans hated Sam because of "Asylum" because they cannot stand a self-absorb person with that much hate, anger, and resentment type character. (I guess they don't like mirrors either) The mod was just trying to excuse their behavior instead of doing something about it! You see more of a person's true colors online. Because you see what a person is like when they can hide behind their user name mask and you see a person write whatever. It's who you are when you think there will be no consequences and no one gets hurt, but more importantly, when you know no one will find out who you are and hold you to it.

Whatever you don't go there. They don't like the show, only Dean and even then they just complain about how he is being written. I will never understand why people get so nasty just to prove why their favorite is better. It doesn't matter! No one care why you like someone better, it's your opinion and you don't have to explain it or rip other characters a part just to come up on top.

Wow! This turned into a long post! Oops!!

[isitfridayyet]

What a WONDERFUL post, lemongrover! I couldn't agree more!

[athena]

even though i don't mind Cas, i do think that Sam has gotten the short stick for a lot of the recent episodes and even seasons. But i don't think that me saying so means i only like one character, or that i am not a real fan. its that brotherly bond that I miss, the one that could take me from liking the show to loving it again!

[spoilerwolf]

Mar 15, 2012 2:11:46 GMT -5 isitfridayyet said:

Yes, Ani, Yes!! I too have been wondering where the brotherly bond went! The writers advertised that it would be the boys against the world this season. Cas "died", Bobby "died" and virtually aside from Frank, they don't really have anyone else but each other. Fine, but why do I only know how Dean feels about it? How does SAM feel about losing Castiel? How does SAM feel about Bobby's death? How does SAM feel about Dean's constant angsting? The ONLY positive I was holding onto this season was the chance of Sammy getting some further POV. I was thinking that if Cas is gone, at least I can get more SAM! Instead, I'm watching Dean have his man period all season and Sam press his hand.

Now I'm going to be selfish for a minute. It's no secret to anyone here that I was ELATED at the announcement of Castiel's return, but I'm off put by the more negative than usual response by some fans. I expected back lash, really I did. Not everyone loves Cas..and I get that..but seriously people are OUTRAGED. I can see why. I'm so mad at the writers for failing epically with Sam and then bringing Cas back during his promised time. How could I expect his return to be well received by sam girls and bi-bro fans? All it does is diminish the chances that Sam will have ANY POV this season because people are worried that Cas is going to come in and steal the spot light.

Ideally, I'd like the majority of fans to like Castiel, and if they can't, to at least tolerate him being there, but due to this ATROCIOUS writing for Sam, some fans will NEVER like him. He will always be another distraction from Sam and he will NEVER be written to support SAM's character development as opposed to Dean's. So, to my own selfish purposes, I am pissed at the writers for failing this season with Sam and basically demolishing ANY chance that the Cas hate will subside. I love Sam and was so excited to see this Lucifer storyline play out. I was also ready for Sam girls and bi-bro fans to get some of that POV they so badly needed to ease their frustrations. But no, we get neither. We only get the Dean Winchester show with returning homewrecker Castiel to further piss off the fandom.

Ah. Venting is nice. Feel better now.

Wow. Just.... wow.

Massive respect from me on this post. A lot of what you said, is exactly how I feel as a Skeptic & as a non-Cas fan.

Honestly? I never liked the introduction of Castiel. I don't care for slap stick comedy and that's what he boiled down to in a lot of the episodes. Outside of the impressive entrance, I couldn't stand the character. I couldn't always put a finger on why - just something about the character rubbed me wrong.

But as the seasons went on, I think it was bitterness (and probably some jealousy, if I'm honest) that this side character had a lot of emphasis placed on him only because of his affiliations with Dean (and because, supposedly, Dawn O stepped in and made them keep Castiel) - even when it was past the point of having angels on this show.

I won't lie- I found it frustrating that Castiel got far better treatment in many of these seasons than Sam did - especially by Dean, who was supposed to be SAM'S brother, not Castiel's.

Also the fact that it seemed that Cas and Sam had little to no interaction, didn't warm me to the character.

As being a skeptic, I also felt that the writers meant to make Castiel "Dean's Ruby" for lack of a better term. Then chickened out when they were forced to keep the character (he was only meant for 1-4 episodes before being given a 2 season extension).

So I never did love Castiel, for both selfish and story reasons.

I'm waaay off topic, but I appreciate your post very much. I don't begrudge those that enjoy Castiel - different strokes for different folks.


To be ON topic - Ravanne, I fully support your post and that's exactly what I'm feeling at this time.

[spoilerwolf]

lemongrover, AMAZING post. Well thought out and well written.

[yimhappy]

lemongrover & Friday,
Excellent post. I totally agree that Sam & Castiel got short changed by the writers. That might be OK if someone got a great story, but S7 Dean's story bores me. Depression isn't a story.

This looks like an interesting thread, but damn, it's a lot to read. I'll have to come back when I have a spare hour.

[ravanne]

Sigh... the promo for TBAI just cemented what I already feared was going to happen. Sam's story (what there is of it) is not going to be about Sam at all, but will just be a vehical to return Castiel to the show. This is just the latest example of Sam not being a character in his own right, but is merely a plot device for Dean (and now Castiel) to act around.

Take how they show is handling Sam's mental break down in OWTO. We're getting a whole lot of telling us what Sam is seeing in his head and not showing it, so it comes out feeling very diluted and unsatisfying. I get that the show can't afford to have Mark P. around all the time and he's got other projects that he's working on, but the whole point of Sam losing his mental grip at this point is that he loses his ability to tell what is real and what is hallucination. Seeing Lucifer himself isn't the only way they can accomplish this, nor is it probably the best way (because while as much as I love Luci, using him too much can reduce the impact that his appearances have).

An effective way to show Sam losing his abilitity to differentiate between what's real and what's in his mind would be a scene like we saw in the library in RM - have something horrific happen and then when Sam blinks, it's all back to normal. Show Dean saying something completely out of character for him, or have Lucifer use Dean's face to say awful things to Sam, like he can't wait until Sam is back in Hell where he deserves to be and Lucifer can have his favorite chew toy back. Let Sam get a flash of seeing the skin on his hands peeling back, as if he's being flayed, and then back to normal as if nothing happened at all. That would shake Sam's mental grip and would hammer home to the audience just what he's seeing. Telling us that Luci has been singing Stairway to Heaven on a loop is a cop out and has little real impact.

The promo just goes on to show how little Sam's POV and agency have to do with what is happening to him. Dean's talking about his fear about Sam dying and his concerns over if he can trust Castiel. The promo ends on Castiel being in frame (which is designed to generate the most interest and excitement) while Sam? A quick flash of him looking awful. The whole thing is not about Sam at all, and rather than having our concern focused on whether one of the main characters of the show will survive or be driven hopelessly insane, we are pointed at Castiel's return.

[lala2]

What a wonderful thread! I couldn't agree more with all of you! I will post more later because I am very frustrated with this season, and especially with Sam's storyline!

[ravanne]

Well, what I expected did happen. Sam's storyline ended up being used as a mechanism to "redeem" Castiel. His sacrifice and sufferering, the one real storyline had had this season, was nothing more than a reason to get Castiel back into their good graces. Having Castiel take Sam's insanity into itself cheapens the real sacrifice Sam has made and now made it Castiel's sacrifice.

So in the end, Sam has no storyline of his own, or even canon history. Sam was the one who had wanted a life away from hunting (and was called selfish for wanting it), until they gave that desire to Dean. Sam was the one plagued with visions and psychic powers, until the writers decided to igore that it ever happned. Sam suffered from his sacrifice of going to Hell, until they gave that suffering to Castiel and let him make the grand sacrifice.

I'm trying to keep in mind that Castiel only took away Lucifer plaguing Sam and not the Hell memories. He got Sam on his feet. But when you consider that what happened to Sam took all of four expisodes this entire season to explore and wrap up, it becomes clear that the writers had no intention of every making what happened to him and how he felt about it a major focus for this season.

[SoCal]

Geez, you guys REALLY need to lighten up:

[Aeryn]

It was Sam's choice to ignore Dean's warnings about Ruby...yet, Sam pursued his "relationship" with her, trusted her, and ended up springing Lucifier from the box.

Yes, he sacrificed himself to make things right. So did Castiel, when he walked into that lake. They both suffered, they both came back.

End of story.

[SoCal]

Mar 28, 2012 8:25:12 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

It was Sam's choice to ignore Dean's warnings about Ruby...yet, Sam pursued his "relationship" with her, trusted her, and ended up springing Lucifier from the box.

Yes, he sacrificed himself to make things right. So did Castiel, when he walked into that lake. They both suffered, they both came back.

End of story.

It really must be the apocalypse....I agree with Aeryn's assessment 100%.

[1027phoenix]

Sorry but Cas did not sacrifice himself by going into the lake. The Levis took him there so your comparison doesn't fly.

[percysowner]

Mar 28, 2012 21:05:38 GMT -5 1027phoenix said:

Sorry but Cas did not sacrifice himself by going into the lake. The Levis took him there so your comparison doesn't fly.

This is right. The Leviathans took Castiel's body into the river so that they could spread into the water system and take over the world. The sum total of Castiel's suffering until episode 17 was to be found, naked, by a beautiful woman who married him and relieved him of his virginity (presumably), become a healer so that everyone he met was completely and totally grateful to him and somehow make a living off of this profound gratitude. If a nice home, good sex, the respect and devotion of all I meet and future referrals for jobs is a sacrifice, sign me up. I'll somehow cope with the absolute horror of being revered and loved. Oh, the pain!

[SoCal]

Sam's soulless storyline and Luci-hallucinations lasted over the course of 2 seasons.

So, IMO, no missing storyline or POV.

[Aeryn]

Mar 28, 2012 21:05:38 GMT -5 1027phoenix said:

Sorry but Cas did not sacrifice himself by going into the lake. The Levis took him there so your comparison doesn't fly.

I don't really care.

[1027phoenix]

Mar 29, 2012 19:43:03 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Mar 28, 2012 21:05:38 GMT -5 1027phoenix said:

Sorry but Cas did not sacrifice himself by going into the lake. The Levis took him there so your comparison doesn't fly.

I don't really care.

Then why comment at all?

[isitfridayyet]

Cas sacrificed himself plenty of other times so it doesn't matter.

[AntiArbitrator]

Mar 28, 2012 8:25:12 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

It was Sam's choice to ignore Dean's warnings about Ruby...yet, Sam pursued his "relationship" with her, trusted her, and ended up springing Lucifier from the box.

Yes, he sacrificed himself to make things right. So did Castiel, when he walked into that lake. They both suffered, they both came back.

End of story.

Although I knew some would contradict the comment about the lake, your comment that Castiel has sacrificed himself is absolutely true.

He has sacrificed himself many times. I would consider taking Sam's hellucinations as a sacrifice. For the first time in his loooooong life, he was happy. He gave up a wife and a good life to correct what he had done. That is a major sacrifice.

[ravanne]

Castiel's sacrifices were always temporary. Sure, it was willing to face destruction to help the Winchesters once it decided to throw its lot in them. Each time it "died", it was inexplicably brought back (and assumed it was God that brought it back).

There was no similar reprieve for either of the Winchesters. Dean was pulled from Hell only because he was necessary for Heaven's plottings. Sam got pulled out and left irrevocably damaged as a result of Castiel's initial carelessness (in leaving the soul behind) and then manipulation (using Sam's soulless state because it was useful for its and Crowley's plans).

And as far as the lake scene goes, I have no clue how anyone can read that as Castiel sacrificing itself since it had no control over its body at the time - the whole point of that scene was the release of the Leviathans that Castiel had brought into this world from Purgatory. It was the capping of a monumental mistake, not a sacrifice since its apparent "death" at the time did nothing to try to fix the problem that it created. To argue otherwise is to be an appologist. When it comes to the idea that Castiel gave up being "happy" to help, it was living a lie. Living without memories with a woman who apparently had an even smaller IQ than Lisa did (in taking in a man she knew nothing about). And in all honesty, I don't give two shits about Castiel's happiness, because it had done nothing to earn it. Sam has, and so has Dean. Castiel did not deserve to be rewarded with peace when the Winchesters that it turned inside out emotionally on a repeated basis were suffering the way they did. Taking on Sam's pain was the first genuine sacrifice I've seen Castiel make so far, and it was a small price to pay for the suffering it brought to both Sam and Dean.

Having said that, this thread is about Sam's storyline (or lack thereof) and not Castiel.

[1027phoenix]

Back atcha Aeryn. Don't like it being pointed out that you made a mistake, huh?