S717: The Born Again Identity, come vote & discuss

[Tinker]

Holy Trenchcoat - Cas is back!
Holy Hellucinations - Sam is cracking up!
Come vote and tell us in detail what you thought of the episode - whether it changed your life, or made you cringe (not in the good SPN way)! By the way, you can pick two choices in this week's poll, because the issue of the winged-one, may have strong influence in your rating. If so, let the world know!
Remember, this isn't the Fight Club, although I am putting this same Poll and Thread in the FC as well, because I figure this ep could be...shall we say...polarizing.
Happy SPNDay!

[SoCal]

Vote and discuss?? If only. The "Sam girls" have already decided that poor Sammy is going to be ignored in this episode....AND IT HASN'T EVEN AIRED YET!

[lovejeter]

As I figured I freakin loved it!!!! Jared was so freakin amazing tonight. He played losing his mind insomniac Sammy to perfection and he looked so hot doing it too!!

Jensen always rocks!!!! Loved Dean as the caring brother trying to find anyone that could help. I also loved badass Dean killin the demons. And sentimental softy Dean keeping Cas' trenchcoat and then giving it to Cas when he remembered.

Mark was awesome as Lucifer again. OMG that guy plays creepy and funny at the same time so well!! Love him!

So glad to see Misha back. I loved the childlikeness that Emanuel had. Kinda like Introductory Cas back in S4. LOL I loved that Cas got his memories back smiting demons. I'm glad he apologized to Sam for what he did and admitted he was wrong and then traded places with Sam so that Sam would be ok after the wall thing didn't work.

Some of the great/funny lines/moments tonight:
Dean to Sam"Quit being Dolly-freakin-Yoda about this. Get pissed!!"

Lucifer playing "Wake up little Suzie" on the radio

Dean asked who named Emanuel: Bouncybabynames.com

Emanuel "Your friends name was Cas? That's an odd name"

Meg told Emanuel he's an angel.
Emanuel's reply: "Is that a flirtation?"

Meg is telling Emanuel to smite every demon in the place. "I'm sure it's just like riding a bike"
Emanuel "I don't know how to do that either"

Emanuel smites the demons. Meg says: "That was beautiful Clarence"
She also called him a "tree-topper" as well which is hilarious

[zenezie]

Jared, one again, totally knocked it out of the park. He was awesome in this satisfactory episode. Satisfactory because Cas *finally* is feeling and experiencing all the Hell that Sam experienced, which needs no reminding that all started with Cas in the first place i.e. knowingly using Sam to start the Apocalypse and telling Dean to leave Sam in Hell in order to let the soulless hunter survive.

I thought wanted Dean to kill Cas but this is soooo much better, that Cas is left behind to suffer Sam’s pain. Not surprising Sam protested leaving Cas behind but Dean was like, what ever, probably the best place to dump Cas where only hours earlier were crawling with demons.

[AntiArbitrator]

I rated this episode a 10 because it had:
Insight into Sam's suffering
Lucifer's wit - Singing Good Morning and Wake Up Little Susie; tossing firecrackers. Favorite line "you're having a moment."

Castiel teaming up with Dean to help Sam. Castiel expressing guilt, shame and remorse over what he did. Cas' worst case solution in taking Sam's hellucinations into himself. (Gotta wonder how Emanuel's wife is going to feel about that) I was not thrilled about him putting on that dirty bloody trench coat. I thought it would be symbolic that Dean held onto it - not for Castiel to wear. But other people seemed happy that he wore it.

Dean vented about his anger at Cas for breaking Sam's wall and Sam threw it in Dean's face about Dean putting the soul back in after Cas told him not to. Seems that Sam is blaming Dean more than he is blaming Cas.

Meg brought excitement and a challenge. She wants to be near her Clarence.

I think it was an awesome plot twist to have sick Sam solve a case while in the psych ward. Never expected that.

I enjoyed the entire episode. Good to see some demons again.

[JazzBeePrime]

i liked it. jared did an awesome job as crazy!sam. i was happy to see that cas was not immediately forgiven (or forgiven at all,as of yet). i was happy to see cas admit he was to blame and that he doesnt forgive himself, and doesnt want them forgiving hi either. he finally showed emotion (remorse, self anger,etc) about what he did to sam.

i didnt think dean was ooc in this epi. he maintained the 'big brother on a mission to save his beloved baby bro', while dishing out the badazz hunter. he wasnt fawning over cas, in fact, i thought he was almost indifferent towards him most the time. he wasnt all that concerned about leaving him in the asylum under meg's watch. he never did refer to him as his friend either.

[ravanne]

Ok... I got home late from a last minute bachelorette party so ended up watching it on DVR (and managed to restrain myself from FF through the dull moments). A lot of good stuff and a couple of things that managed to piss me off.

The really, really good stuff:

Anything related to Sam - Sam's storyline this season definately got cut off at the knees, but what there was of it has been amazing. Jared deserves a huge amount of credit for being able to make the absolute most out of what little focus they actually give him. Got some nice POV (better late than never) and watching Sam falling apart at the seams was both heartbreaking and thrilling. Sam's desperation to keep Lucifer at bay any way he could, even though it was killing him in the process was for me the draw of the episode. And that Sam was able to find himself a minor hunt while institutionalized was more than a little amusing. And between getting hit by a car, Lucifer's games and being tortured with electroshock... it was a cornocopia of limp.

Luci! - The Gods know that I adore Mark P's portrayal of Lucifer and the nearly juvinille glee he took at torturing his favorite toy. The not-so-subtle innuendo about what he and Sam could do in a locked ward, waking up Sam with "Wake Up Little Suzie" and Luci reading the ICD9 manual (and trying to diagnosis himself) had me giggling. And they never hid the darkness in his actions, as we got to witness every twitch and wince made by Sam in response. All of Luci's maliciousness was on full display and just highlighted the real horror that Sam was going through.

Big Brother Dean - For the first time this season, Dean really showed complete awareness of what Sam was going through and put everything else on hold to save his brother. Nothing else was more important. Not getting Dick Roman, not figuring out what was happening with Castiel. Nothing. He was willing to deal with Meg, and it was Sam who was trying to keep Dean from doing things that they might later regret. It's been a long time since we've seen pure, unadulturated big brother Dean who was focused on nothing more than saving his brother. Even all his interactions with Castiel seemed more focused on how to use Castiel to help Sam rather than trying to reconnect with it. Even giving Castiel its trench coat seemed more to just get Castiel to focus rather than recapture what is no longer there. And he certainly never forgave Castiel or got past what Castiel did.

Castiel accepting ownership of its actions - I make no secret of the fact that I've got very limited tolerance for Castiel and one of my biggest bones of contention was its refusal to take responsibility for anything it did. This was the first time when it not only took full responsibility for it's mistakes, but even insisted that its actions were worse than Dean knew. Was a rather novel and welcome change.

Now, what really, really, really pissed me off...

Sam's abbreviated storyline - Wow, the show took a whole two episodes to rap up Sam's storyline. After having multipe episodes where Dean's emotional issues were front and center, this was more than a tad dissapointing. Not unexpected since Sam's story has been getting the short end of the stick since season four. What we had was satisfying, but it seems a real crime that build up was nearly non-existant and it seemed to get wrapped up with minimal muss and fuss (though I have doubts that Sam's hell troubles are really over - I think that Castiel just, as it said, got Sam on his feet).

Sam's insta-cure - Does this make sense to anyone? How the hell could Castiel just absorb Sam's crazy. Especially after it was made definatively clear that Sam's mental protections were non-existant. It said something about shifting it, but how the exactly works out doesn't make any real sense. Unless this is just a temp fix. Which is what I think it is.

Some interesting things that now come to mind...

Castial now apparently is less an actual characer (and I think has gotten as much redemption as it's likely to get) and now is a plot point. It's a weapon now. A broken angel that cannot count on protection from Heaven (since whatever survivors are left in Heaven likely aren't going to view Castiel too charitably) and a King of Hell that would certainly find use for Castiel's powers. The Winchesters might be able to use Castiel as a way to deal with the Leviathans, but I cannot see Castiel ever coming back to the same level of influence on the storyline that it had previously enjoyed.

Sam's mental issues - I don't buy that Castiel just asorbed all the mental trauma and hell pain into itself and now Sam is back to... well, pre-Swan Song Sam. Sam is up and walking, but I'm right now waiting for the other shoe to drop. I don't think Sam's going to have Lucifer singing him to sleep every night, but Sam's soul was used as Satan's chew toy. That's not something that can just be "fixed"

Dean's attitude towards Castiel - I know that a lot of fans were waiting to see Dean and Castiel back to where they were before all this started, but Dean's behavior clearly showed that this was not the case. Dean has not forgiven Castiel for what it did. He certainly blames Castiel for Sam being in the state he was in. And that moment some were waiting for... the return of the trench coat... that came across more like just getting Castiel up and running so they can use it's powers. There was no warmth or tenderness from Dean towards Castiel. That ship sailed a long time ago.

And was it my imagination or did Meg look... swollen? I'm wondering if the actress playing her is well, because her face was very round and looked to me like someone on steroid therapy (which I know because I was on similar therapy many years ago and I also had a moon face).

[isitfridayyet]

Cas has evolved so much as a character. He went from an emotionless angel to now a creature fully consumed with regret and remorse. His apology to Sammy was heart felt and he sacrificed his own well being to make up for what he did. My heart hurts for him, but I'm glad he proved what I've been arguing until blue in the face: Cas is a wonderful being with good intentions who truly cares about the Winchesters. I hope to see TFW put back together. I hope Dean can forgive him. I think he's on his way to proving that he deserves it.


Jared's performance was stellar. My heart broke for Sammy the whole episode. Glad he's better though. He never deserved to have this happen to him.

Misha's performance was excellent.

Meg is..well..she's Meg. I don't think I trust her..just yet. Leaving Cas in her care? Not sure I'm thrilled about that decision from Dean.

I hope Sammy is fixed for good and I hope they can help Castiel.

[ravanne]

So... did Castiel earn redemption or get Dean's forgiveness?

I didn't get any real sense that it did. Castiel repaired one thing that it broke - Sam's sanity. Obviously this is one of most personal interest to us, but Castiel itself said that its crimes went far beyond breaking Sam's wall. Heaven is still devastated from its killing spree. The Leviathans are still wreaking havoc on the Earth. Crowley's position in Hell is even more secure. Indirectly, the most important support that Sam and Dean had - Bobby - died as a result of what Castiel did. So taking away Sam's pain (which I all I believe Castiel actually did) is a first step towards trying to fix what it did, but it still has a long way to go.

And I didn't get any sense from Dean that he was actually relieved to see Castiel alive, or glad to have it back in any capacity beyond being able to use it to help Sam. All of Dean's behavior was very much keeping Castiel at arm's length, and justifiably, Dean has a lot to be angry at Castiel for. Hurting Sam was unquestionably an enormous issue, but there is also the personal betrayal that Dean feels. Castiel turned on Dean. It lied to Dean every step of the way. It used Dean's brother for its own ends. It used both Sam and Dean for its own ends and put them in mortal danger. There is a great deal for Dean to work through before I think he can actually consider forgiving Castiel (and in the end, I believe it will be because it's just too hard for Dean to keep carrying around anger over what can't be changed than anything that Castiel does to actually earn it). Even Dean giving Castiel back its trench coat - probably the most gag inducing scene in the episode - seemed more a matter of getting Castiel to focus and remember itself than any kind of caring or fondness.

So Castiel's "redemption" was a rather mixed bag. It for the first time took ownership of its actions, which is a rather remarkable evolutionary jump for the character. It recognized that it had to fix at least the one thing it could, but still left an enormous burden for Sam and Dean to carry. It was a good first step (though I really am frustrated that Sam's story was used to help Castiel's rather than have it be about Sam, and having a "quick fix" that cuts Sam's story off at the knees), but it only altered one very small thing in all the harm that it committed. Whatever else the writers have planned for Castiel, it still has a long way to go.

[SoCal]

I thought it was, bar none, the best episode of the season. I really can't understand why anyone would give it anything less than a 10+ review.

Everyone in it gave a stellar effort and it certainly paid off. Glad to see Castiel taking ownership of the asshole he had become, how he "deserved to die," and how he traded places with Sam to "cure" him. Sam's descent into madness was terrific....you really felt like he was diving off the deep end. Dean was awesome, as usual, doing anything and everything to help his brother. Luci was incredibly evil and really drove home how evil succeeds not just by doing bad things, itself, but by making good people do bad things.

One question.....what was up with the actress who plays Meg? Her performace was great, but her face was swollen to the size of a bowling ball. She sick, or something? On steroids? Cause that's what it looked like.

I thought it was a good way to wrap up a 2-season storyline of Sam's descent into Hell. He certainly got more story out of it than Dean did when he went to Hell.

Great episode....which just shows you that Sera Gamble should only write episodes and NOT be the show-runner. Great story, Sera, but you really don't know how to drive this show.

[lala2]

Well, I definitely gave the episode less than an 10. We all want different things out of the show, and this episode didn't give me anything I wanted. If it did for you, great! Unfortunately, for me, this whole season has been a massive disappointment apart from 7.01. 7.02, and that clown episode. I really and truly enjoyed those episodes. "Slash Fiction" was good to but it had no real, true impact on the boys or their lives. For me, the best episode this season was "Hello, Cruel World." No episode has matched that one.

Here are my thoughts on this episode - cut and pasted from another post I made on another board.

The way they wrapped up Sam's story really bothered me. As you said, it was ignored for the majority of the season and then wrapped up quickly and instantly in two lousy episodes. What was the point of the story? How did breaking Sam's wall impact him?

For the most part, it didn't. The collapse of the Wall had no impact on Sam. He has been functional for the majority of the season. He will continue to be functional. His hallucinations did not slowly break him down. We didn't see Sam's slow descent into madness as his coping methods slowly failed him, which, IMO, would have been a much more interesting way to tell his story. No, we saw Sam manage the hallucinations for 12-13 episodes straight. We saw him function. We saw him hunt. We saw him fight. We never saw him struggle until the past two episodes. We never saw any hint that he wasn't coping. To me, that's not a story. It's the bare bones of a story/arc/plot.

There was no point in giving Sam these issues if the Show had no intention of exploring them. The Wall was the perfect way to NOT explore his issues, so I'm at a loss as to why they had it fall. They didn't do anything interesting w/the hallucinations or Sam's coping methods. Since the Show is not interested in exploring Sam, just keep him functional w/no actual issues.

I certainly won't be shocked if we never hear about Sam's time in the asylum or the electroshock therapy or anything again. Clearly, IMO, the writers wanted to get this "plot" (i.e., Sam's Wall falling) over and done with as soon as possible. They pushed the story aside for the majority of the season, brought it back, dusted it off, and wrapped it up in lightning speed. The writers had no interest in this story from the get go so I highly doubt we'll see any lasting impact.

I also had a major problem w/Sam both being on the brink of dying and also being capable of solving that girl's ghost issue. You can't do both, or at least IMO, both can't be done successfully. Having Sam involved in that silly, waste of time hunt really took away, IMO, from Sam's own experiences and what he was going through. It diminished his experience. That whole arc wasn't necessary. Neither was the inclusion of Daphne. I felt bad for her. Hopefully, Dean tells her what happened to her husband. Poor girl!

I also had a hard time buying that Sam was at death's door. Not only b/c of his involvement in that silly hunt, but also b/c there was no sense of urgency in the show from Sam or Dean. I don't know. I didn't feel much from Dean. The bond I felt in HCW wasn't present here, and it should have been.

And, no, I'm not saying Dean doesn't love Sam. I know Dean loves his brother and would do anything for him. I just didn't feel like Dean was urgent to save Sam. It was just off, for me.

To be clear, I've been disappointed in the season as a whole since the Amy debacle (7.03 and onward). Dean's arc made no sense and had ZERO resolution. It's like the writers wanted him angsting for the sole purpose of doing it. Sam's arc was sorely underplayed, neglected, and wasted. For most of the season, Sam had "no" story in my estimation. The Leviathans don't have much of a presence. I don't care much about them, so having the remaining episodes focused on an enemy I couldn't care less about is not ideal.

I'm happy some are enjoying the season. That's how I was last season. Happy. I wish I could have enjoyed this season - yes, I'm speaking prospectively b/c I'm almost positive that I'll still feel this way by the season finale though I'd love to be wrong - but it just didn't happen. Maybe, next year will be better. If the writers sit down and actually think of an arc, a direction for next season, then the show will be in better shape, IMO, than it is now.

As far as Rachel Miner is concerned, it was posted on another board that she suffered a lower back injury and had been taking medication when she filmed this episode. That would explain the swollen look to her face. I hope she's feeling better!

[waggy3015]

I really liked this episode.

I felt so bad for Sam. Poor guy, Lucifer not letting him sleep. That early scene between him and Dean was sweet.

I'm so proud of him that despite everything he was dealing with, he managed to help that girl and her dead brother.

One thing I'm not sure about is Meg. How did she find Dean and Emanuel(Cas)? And is she wanting to keep him alive to kill Crowley?

Does Dean know that Meg got a job at the Asylum?

The Dean and "Cas" interactions were interesting. I liked their conversation in the car and Dean choosing his words carefully.

I was a bit surprised at the end that "Cas" took in Sam's hallucinations. Knowing that Sam was back hunting in the next episode, I figured "Cas" had to have done something to make Sam better, but I never considered that.

I am curious how Sam would have gotten released? Maybe between Sam sleeping for a couple of days and some slick talking by Dean, Sam got released?

[AntiArbitrator]

Mar 24, 2012 12:30:33 GMT -5 waggy3015 said:

I really liked this episode.

One thing I'm not sure about is Meg. How did she find Dean and Emanuel(Cas)? And is she wanting to keep him alive to kill Crowley?

Does Dean know that Meg got a job at the Asylum?

I am curious how Sam would have gotten released? Maybe between Sam sleeping for a couple of days and some slick talking by Dean, Sam got released?

Meg - Makes me wonder if Meg has been keeping an eye on the Winchesters ever since the Castiel implosion. Demons always seemed to know what the boys were doing. And Meg had nothing better to do since she has no allies. I don't think Cas will be going after The King of Hell anytime soon. But Meg will certainly be trying to stay close to her boo in the meantime. ;D

I am wondering too if Dean knows Meg stayed behind. Perhaps his conversation with Sam at the car indicates they know she is there.

Sam and Dean are experts at escaping institutions and they were there under fake names. I think they just walked out, as usual.

[Lostcause]

Wasn't looking forward to the return of Cas. But they went about it properly though. And when he got his memory back he was old skool Cas from season 4. Smiting and choosing the side no other angel did, humans. Taking insanity on himself, is probably the only way the brothers can fully put it behind them, if Sam had to juggle with the always delightfully evil Lucy that wasn't going to happen.

Wonder how things turn out.

The episode itself felt rushed, like there could and should have been 2 episodes but only time for 1. Wether it was Mark Ps schedule that once again made 2 impossible or simply the higher ups not granting the extra epi, it was a good way to bring back the fallen angel/god/leviathan battery to his former self.

The big question after this though, is it really Bobby doing all the ghosty stuff to the brothers, like turning over the book, or something else?

[AntiArbitrator]

With multiple plot twists, I think some of us forgot about the ghostly book drop that led to the phone number that led to Castiel. I think it is Bobby's ghost helping them. Given a choice I do not think Bobby would choose to cross over and leave the boys behind.

I wonder how that entity will reveal itself. If the boys wanted to get rid of Bobby's ghost they would probably have to burn all his books. But I don't think they would send him away.

LC, I am glad you brought this up

[Aeryn]

I think that Gabriel has somehow returned...and I think he's the one responsible for the info on Castiel. Don't forget, last time we saw him Lucifier destroyed him....and I'm sure Gabe is dying for some payback.

So perhaps God has brought Gabriel back....and also, I believe that "Emmanuel's" wife is an angel. Remember, she said that God had led her to "Emmanuel." I just get a strong feeling she is one of our winged wonders.

I think that Castiel, Gabriel, Michael, and perhaps Crowley will be teaming up in the near future. Oh, and Meg as well.

The Leviathans will be defeated by a team of angels, demons, and the Winchesters.

[SoCal]

Interesting theories, Aeryn. And, they sound plausible. All except for Daphne being an angel. Wouldn't she have kicked the demon's ass....the one who tied her up? She's just probably another one of those people God or the other angels talk to.

As for the rest.....I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that way. Dean and Sam, angels, a few select demons defeating the Leviathins? Sounds good to me.

[waggy3015]

So did anybody figure out who Dean was going to call when he stopped at the convenience store?

Like they said at the end, pretty much all their friends are dead.

Or was it simply that he was going to call the hosptial to check on Sam?

[lovejeter]

waggy....after watching it the first time I was wondering who Dean was going to call and after viewing a second time I figured it had to be Sam. He was either expecting a call from Sam at a certain time or was going to call him to see how he was doing.

[SoCal]

I found that scene to be a little gratuitous. Why did he go into the store? Why was he immediately suspicious when someone else walked in?

As for the phone, I don't think he was going to call Sam, I think he was looking for some returned messages from all the calls he had made earlier.

And why did Meg choose that time to appear?

Maybe Dean went into the store just to check his messages away from "Emmanuel." I dunno. I thought that sequence was weak in an otherwise strong episode.

[evilsquirre1]

Well I'm been lazy and haven't toss an opinion out about the episode. I hadn't even read an reviews until today. It always surprises the heck out of me when people's opinons are completely different from mine. :confused:

If I really enjoyed an episode I give it a 9. I hardly ever give a 10s because it has to be perfect to get a 10. This episode I gave a 10. I loved Sam's breakdown. The scenes with Lucifer was amazing. I loved Cas with no memory and married. I'm interested to know more about his wife and how she deals with her hubby's breakdown. I loved Meg coming back to save Dean because she has to hide for Crowley. For me I have enjoyed the heck out of the season. So much better then Season 6. The storylines seem focused then season 6. My hubby watched the episode after me and agreed it was a great one. The acting on all sides was excellent. I loved the brother moments. I don't mind Cas in the looney bin waiting for his brain to untwist. Different people have different opinions so I understand for some people it wasn't excellent but for me it was. :mrgreen:

[novemberschild]

I loved this episode! Misha and Jared were both great in this one and you could see the emotions play out in their acting.
Sam was just beyond done but yet still tried to help someone, that's typical Sam.
Emmanuel was subtle, gentle, supportive and understanding in his dealings with Dean and tried to comfort him when he sensed Dean was upset (not knowing why).
The scene where Cas got his memories back was the best scene I have seen on SPN in a long time. The music was different but appropriate and you could see the agony in Cas's eyes as the memories came flooding back.
Can we have more episodes like this one and not so many fillers?

[yimhappy]

Funny how this episode made me better appreciate epi 7.04 “Defending Your Life”.

I was disappointed that this episode left me with no sense of hope, despite Castiel’s miraculous return from the dead, and Sam being rescued from insanity & death. Dean didn’t even look happy. Maybe “no hope” was intentionally part this season’s mood?

So, I wondered how this episode could have had a bigger or more hopeful emotional impact. My guess is that this episode would have been more powerful if we had seen more build up about losing-Sam or lost-Cas in previous episodes. For instance, if we had seen more of what Cas’ loss meant, or more of how Lucifer wore down Sam.

Further, why wasn’t I scared for Dean being utterly alone in a hostile world?? Dean was on the brink of having lost EVERYONE, all family, all friends. How could I have not felt that, given what family means to Dean?? That scare could have been big tension to have felt released, hence big impact.

Then I realized, “Oh, maybe that was the point behind episode 7.04?” I think that 7.04 was supposed to be about Dean realizing his fear of being alone, to build up emotional impact of future episodes. Or is that giving SPN too much credit?

[yimhappy]

lala,
I totally agree that Sam's hell story didn't tell us anything new about Sam.
Sam/Dean didn't seem upset enough about Sam dying.
I also agree that S7's arcs, Dean's angst, Leviathans have not interested me.

It's like Maureen Ryan said early in the season, "give the Winchesters something to care about, so we'll care".


Also, like waggy, lovejeter, & SoCal,
I was confused as to why Dean stopped at that store, and how all these demons + Meg were waiting there.

[SoCal]

Be careful about agreeing with me, yim, lost cause won't like it because he thinks I have nothing worthwhile to contribute.