The Help by Kathryn Stockett

[gilmorefanalways]

Lol that misprint turned into a bad word lol as a whole is wat i meant

[AntiArbitrator]

Sept 21, 2012 17:49:34 GMT -5 gilmorefanalways said:

Lol that misprint turned into a bad word lol as a whole is wat i meant

Do you mean tonight?

[gilmorefanalways]

Did everyone catch up this week?

[Mistermoonlight]

I just now got finished with chapter 16.

[gilmorefanalways]

Yes anti tonight i thought we could discuss our thoughts and opinions of the book up to the chapter we are on

[gilmorefanalways]

That's ok to moon i am also behind still i believer I'm onchapter 19 about the middle

[Mistermoonlight]

I remember back in one of the early chapters Aibileen went to her garden and got a dinner of poke salad and tomatoes, and it reminded me of this song by Tony Joe White:



By the way, Tony Joe's a Louisiana boy!

The actual name is poke sallet, and it's considered a weed. People don't grow it in gardens. It's only good to eat up until the early spring, way before tomatoes are ripe, so Stockett got a little of her research wrong.

[Mistermoonlight]

Sept 16, 2012 22:21:30 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

As MisterMoonlight said, it is time to get this show back on the road.

Chapter 5
Skeeter describes her relationship with Constantine as a nurturing one, plus her nanny was her ally and confidante. Constantine helped shape Skeeter’s realization that she could make her own choices and she could choose what she wanted to believe. It surprises me that although her mother obviously believes the colored people are inferior, Skeeter was permitted to go to Constantine’s home and play with the children. I think learning that Constantine had a white father was a revelation to Skeeter and the thought that the races mixed had never entered her mind. Apparently she never read any of the Mandingo book series.

*Mandingo is a novel by Kyle Onstott, published in 1957. The book is set in the 1830s in the antebellum South primarily around Falconhurst, a fictional plantation in Alabama owned by the planter Warren Maxwell. The narrative centers on Maxwell, his son Hammond, and the Mandingo (or Mandinka) slave Ganymede, or Mede. It is a tale of cruelty toward the blacks of that time, detailing vicious fights, poisoning, and violent death. *

It is interesting to note that Wikipedia's description does not mention that the book was really about intimate relationships between slaves and the mistress of the house. It appears that even now, it may be taboo to put that in the description, but look at the movie poster.



Skeeter’s mother is a traditional mother who believes her daughter should want to do what she was bred to do. I think the mother’s idea of what will attract a husband causes her to worry that her daughter will remain unmarried. Therefore, she nags her to camouflage her physical shortcoming, which is her height, and to make her daughter more attractive, a $25,000 trust fund was set up for her.
MisterMoonlight, would the equivalent of $188,000 make a woman more attractive as a mate?

That's interesting, because although I never read the book(s) or saw the movie, I remember the book cover and posters for the movie, and the 'forbidden' nature of the relationship was very much the selling point back in the 60s.

$188,000? It certainly wouldn't hurt. But some things aren't worth any amount of money.

[AntiArbitrator]

I am listening to Polk Salad Annie. Tough girl.

[gilmorefanalways]

That's Some interesting info moon

[AntiArbitrator]

I think the Mandingo books were treated like the book Skeeter was writing. People were reading it, but talked in whispers. I picked up a copy of Mandingo that was laying on a table and thought it was X-rated. That did not stop me from reading it though. It certainly gave me unrealistic expectations for when I grew up.

[Mistermoonlight]

Sept 16, 2012 22:27:26 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Chapter 6
While chapter 5 described the nurturing relationship, chapter 6 gives many instances of remarks that reflected Skeeter’s mother thought colored people were inferior.

• I think saying that you cannot leave a colored man and woman alone together to shuck peas was like comparing them to rutting animals.
  
• When Skeeter’s mom did not respond favorably to her securing a job, Skeeter’s comment linking Jameso, the help, to possibly being of interest to her mother was a good, monumental insult.
  
• I think it would have made more sense for Mrs. Phelan to be upset about the subject matter on the TV, but she seemed more upset that her daughter was standing near the maid while they watched TV at the same time.
  

After Skeeter got a job writing the Myrna column, her frequent contact with Aibileen led to her learning that Constantine was let go. When questioned, her mother said it was a colored thing, and that was the end of it. My mind went directly to an affair between Constantine and the father. I was very suspicious that Constantine was let go after her daughter visited the house. Skeeter also learned that Treelore was writing a story about colored people working for white people.

Chapter 7
Mae Mobley’s relationship with Aibileen mirrors Skeeter’s with Constantine. Elizabeth said many unkind things to Mae Mobley, and I am glad that Aibileen made great effort to counteract those messages. The potty training episode highlighted how children are taught that colored people are both inferior and diseased. Although it is not stated in the book, I think Elizabeth’s mistreatment of the child is one of the reasons Elizabeth’s hateful lessons do not stick. The other reason is Aibileen constantly gave her positive reinforcement.

I do not personally recall being barred from shopping at any supermarkets, but I do recall people saying the groceries delivered to black neighborhoods were of poorer quality. Lack of transportation was probably one of the reasons we were not exposed to that issue.

Robert was attacked and beaten by two white men for using the wrong bathroom. I don’t think that was legal, but I doubt anything will be done about it. Robert became blind as a result of the beating.

Chapter 8
Stein is interested in a book about colored maids and their white employers but is well aware of the danger. Skeeter carries her information in a red satchel, and it seems the color red is an indication of danger. I think Aibileen’s reluctance to help with the book showed a good sense of self-preservation.

Hilly knows when she is making insulting comments to the maids; for example, she said “You make the best colored coffee in town.” Is there a difference? And she put Aibileen in the embarrassing position of saying “thank you” for the toilet.

Chapter 9
Sometimes I think the author goes to extremes to get her point across. Skeeter’s date had to be the worst date ever for polite society and her friends did not rescue her.

Hilly’s rudeness did one good thing. It made Aibileen angry enough to help with the book.


Chapter 10
Although it was the meter man who showed up at the house instead of Johnny, I think Minny has a right to be upset and insist Celia tell him about having a maid. Celia said she wanted Johnny to think of her as worthy, but that fails logic because the women in Johnny’s family all had maids. None of her excuses make sense to me.

When Aibileen approached Minny about the book, Minny declined but she thought about how much she had always wanted to tell white folks the truth about themselves.

Celia’s illness causes her to snap at Minny, but she apologizes. I’m sure not many maids received apologies from their mistresses.

When Johnny came home and scared Minny, she was so sure he was going to start swinging the ax. Although it was comic relief, her reaction also highlighted that Minny believed white people could abuse/kill coloreds for just being in their house without permission.

Johnny knew his wife could not cook when she messed up some hamburgers. I think it lacks credibility that Celia still cannot boil water or cook anything. I think Celia feels she is not good enough for Johnny.

Chapter 11
I think it took a tremendous amount of courage for Aibileen to help Skeeter with the book. When her nerves got the best of her and she said she could not go through with it, I realized what the effort was costing her.

I was impressed with Aibileen’s cleverness when she sent a note to Skeeter saying she knew how to make the teapot stop rattling. Aibileen’s skill at writing shows what she could have accomplished if there were opportunities available.

Another thing I think is strange is that Skeeter thought the stories would be sweet and glossy. I cannot imagine why she would think that unless she only looks at the relationship between the children and the nannies. She sees how her mother treats her maid and how her friends treat their maids.

Who was the author that Aibileene says Trelore had read before his death? Was it Ralph Ellison, or Richard Wright? I'm trying to remember.

I had the very same suspicion about why Constantine was let go, too--an affair with the husband.

These are all great insights, and include quite a few things I didn't catch! Thanks, Anti!

[Mistermoonlight]

Sept 21, 2012 19:04:17 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

I think the Mandingo books were treated like the book Skeeter was writing. People were reading it, but talked in whispers. I picked up a copy of Mandingo that was laying on a table and thought it was X-rated. That did not stop me from reading it though. It certainly gave me unrealistic expectations for when I grew up.

How so?

Like I said, I'm only up to chapter 16, and maybe this is covered later, but how many of us believe that Hilly would only read the Jim Crow law pamphlet in Skeeter's satchel? I think she'd read everything in it. I know she would.

[AntiArbitrator]

Who was the author that Aibileene says Trelore had read before his death? Was it Ralph Ellison, or Richard Wright? I'm trying to remember.

The title of the book is Invisible Man (H. G. Wells?) (p. 85) but I do not see the name of the author.

Sept 21, 2012 19:19:39 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

Sept 21, 2012 19:04:17 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

I think the Mandingo books were treated like the book Skeeter was writing. People were reading it, but talked in whispers. I picked up a copy of Mandingo that was laying on a table and thought it was X-rated. That did not stop me from reading it though. It certainly gave me unrealistic expectations for when I grew up.

How so?

Like I said, I'm only up to chapter 16, and maybe this is covered later, but how many of us believe that Hilly would only read the Jim Crow law pamphlet in Skeeter's satchel? I think she'd read everything in it. I know she would.

After reading the book, I expected to feel uncontrollable passion if a man kissed me. I mean they were willing to court torture, dismemberment and death because of great passion. I'm still waiting.

I agree. I think she had enough time to search the satchel thoroughly and would have read everything too. The pamphlet would have made her suspicious, but she seemed too enraged for that to be all she saw.

[Mistermoonlight]

Thank you. I could not remember which book was mentioned. H.G. Wells novel is The Invisible Man, and the one by Ralph Ellison is titled Invisible Man. The latter is the one Trelore read.

Now that I'm thinking back to the earlier chapters I'm remembering things I wanted to write back then, and one of them was to tell of my incredible luck a number of years ago in finding a signed copy of Invisible Man at a garage sale. Obviously the people holding the sale had never looked inside, or perhaps, if they did, more sadly, had no idea how important this book was. I'm glad to say it has proudly rested on my bookshelf since that day.

In regards to those expectations--no wonder you like The Princess Bride and Game of Thrones.

[AntiArbitrator]

Sept 21, 2012 19:58:56 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

Thank you. I could not remember which book was mentioned. H.G. Wells novel is The Invisible Man, and the one by Ralph Ellison is titled Invisible Man. The latter is the one Trelore read.

Now that I'm thinking back to the earlier chapters I'm remembering things I wanted to write back then, and one of them was to tell of my incredible luck a number of years ago in finding a signed copy of Invisible Man at a garage sale. Obviously the people holding the sale had never looked inside, or perhaps, if they did, more sadly, had no idea how important this book was. I'm glad to say it has proudly rested on my bookshelf since that day.

In regards to those expectations--no wonder you like The Princess Bride and Game of Thrones.

You always give me a and a . Yes - Twoo True love.

That is wonderful you were able to get the signed book. I guess I should be ashamed I never read it, but I am a product of my environment. Although I have spent more of my life reading books than any other hobby, the recommendations I received no longer seem worthy.

[Mistermoonlight]

I had a wonderful literature professor who taught a course one semester on black authors. His specialty was researching manuscripts previously unknown from the 1700s and 1800s and getting them published.

I can't remember the name of the course, but we started in the 1700s and worked our way through the Harlem Renaissance. It was a beautiful and memorable education. During that course we read Invisible Man, among many other works important in both historical and literary significance. I found a whole raft of authors to fall in love with.

Here's one of my favorite poets from the Harlem Renaissance, Gwendolyn Brooks and a poem she published in 1959:

We Real Cool

THE POOL PLAYERS.
SEVEN AT THE GOLDEN SHOVEL.

We real cool. We
Left school. We

Lurk late. We
Strike straight. We

Sing sin. We
Thin gin. We

Jazz June. We
Die soon.

Aibileene didn't know it, but there was a whole pantheon of black writers out there before her, as well as during her time, telling the stories of their lives and experiences, much as she did.

[AntiArbitrator]

The poem is written in a style I am not familiar with; yet it tells the story of their lives. Very clever. I can tell you have a great love for literature.

MisterMoonlight, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences. I enjoy them.

I am going to take a break to catch the premiere of Haven and have a very late dinner.

[gilmorefanalways]

Sept 21, 2012 19:27:21 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Who was the author that Aibileene says Trelore had read before his death? Was it Ralph Ellison, or Richard Wright? I'm trying to remember.

The title of the book is Invisible Man (H. G. Wells?) (p. 85) but I do not see the name of the author.




How so?

Like I said, I'm only up to chapter 16, and maybe this is covered later, but how many of us believe that Hilly would only read the Jim Crow law pamphlet in Skeeter's satchel? I think she'd read everything in it. I know she would.

After reading the book, I expected to feel uncontrollable passion if a man kissed me. I mean they were willing to court torture, dismemberment and death because of great passion. I'm still waiting. ht tp:// img./albums/m537/mistermoonlight1/smiley-laughing013.gif[/img]

I agree. I think she had enough time to search the satchel thoroughly and would have read everything too. The pamphlet would have made her suspicious, but she seemed too enraged for that to be all she saw.[/quote]

i believe hilly read everything as well but i think she is the type to wait and plot how to repay someone when they are the most vulnerable. So i think hilly has something awful in the workings for skeeter and yes books do romanticize kissing and well basically any form of physical affection to see the way books tell it well it'll make you think your missing out on something lol

[gilmorefanalways]

Moon about what you said about other writers before Abileen was there punishment for their work?

[Mistermoonlight]

Forgive me. I'm having internet problems tonight. My connection keeps going down.

That's why I wasn't here earlier.

To answer your question, well, for one thing, in the days of slavery it was against the law in many places to teach a slave to read and write.

A black author from that era started his biography with what a scary process that was--can't remember if it was Frederick Douglas or W. E. B Dubois offhand. Hang on and I'll look it up.

[gilmorefanalways]

Ok

[Mistermoonlight]

Sorry, internet went down again, and I had to spend a good amount of time on the phone with my internet service provider.

Anyway, it was Frederick Douglass I was thinking of, and in his 1845 book Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave he tells how his owner's wife began to teach him the alphabet as a child, until her husband found out about it and forbade it, saying that if a slave learned to read, he would become dissatisfied with his condition and desire freedom. Douglass later referred to this statement as the "first decidedly antislavery lecture" he had ever heard.

He continued to pursue learning to read and write, getting some aid from white children, and doing a lot of it on his own. He eventually was sent to a very harsh master when he was about 15 or 16 who beat and whipped him, almost breaking him. Sopmewhere along the line he learned that there were states where a black man could be free, and after several unsuccessful attempts, finally made it to New York, and lived the rest of his life as a free man.

He became an author and speaker on the subjects of emancipation, abolition, and suffrage, He became a statesman, known across the world. He lived an amazing life and was a true American hero.

Here is just a tiny bit of what he did:



I've often wondered if Mrs. Auden, the woman who tried to teach him the alphabet knew how that act of grace affected the history of our nation, because a great degree of the credit for ending slavery, perhaps even more than is given to President Lincoln, is rightfully his.

Every American should know his name.

[AntiArbitrator]

He had amazing courage. It would be wonderful to have a transcript of the conversation between Douglass and Lincoln. Douglass was very persuasive.

[avp60685]

Frederick Douglass was definately underappreciated American hero and still is. I want to reread his autobiography because he was truly remarkable in his way of thinking and the way he never made you feel inferior.

[gilmorefanalways]

This week we will read to 27
And i would like to hear suggestions for our next book

[avp60685]

27? Okay I'll do my best!

[gilmorefanalways]

If you dont get there dont worry we will do another catch up week im still on 19

[avp60685]

Yeah I am on 19 as well!

[Mistermoonlight]

Sept 22, 2012 21:01:42 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

He had amazing courage. It would be wonderful to have a transcript of the conversation between Douglass and Lincoln. Douglass was very persuasive.

As you might imagine, Douglass, being the writer he was, actually wrote a lot about those four meetings he had with President Lincoln. This is my favorite story of his about those meetings:

This was the first of Douglass, visits to the White House. At one such meeting, he relates, "while in conversation with him [Lincoln], his secretary twice announced Governor Buckingham of Connecticut, one of the noblest and most patriotic of the loyal governors. Mr. Lincoln said: Tell Governor Buckingham to wait, for I want to have a long talk with my friend, Frederick Douglass., I interposed and begged him to see the governor at once, as I could wait, but no, he persisted that that he wanted to talk with me and that Governor Buckingham could wait. In his company I was never in any way reminded of my humble origin, or of my unpopular colour."

You can find more at these two websites: rense.com/general63/friend.htm

www.mrlincolnandfreedom.org/inside.asp?ID=69&subjectID=4


We need a movie about Frederick Douglass.

Can you imagine Samuel L. Jackson in the role? He'd certainly bring the fire. Clarence Williams III would be great, too.

I bet every black male actor in the world would fight for that role.

When I worked for a university it was a great experience. If you wanted to know more about plasma physics, you could just walk over and talk to someone in the physics department. Take them out to lunch and pick their brain.

But inevitably for me, the most interesting folks to talk to, without a doubt were the folks in the history department. And it's not because of me or my predilections, it's because of them. There is something unexpectedly brilliant and fleet of mind that is required to be successful in that study that is noble, at least in my experience with them, and with Ph.D's in all subjects in my experience.

Here's a guy I would love to have lunch with--Yale professor David Blight, and here's what he has to say about Frederick Douglass:






Why is Douglass not in the new Steven Spielberg movie, "Lincoln" debuting November 9th? I cannot believe this oversight, especially when we know one of the first drafts for the screenplay featured him prominently.

Douglass's combination of humility, intelligence, and courage remind me of Superman.