9.11 "First Born" Poll and Discussion

[SoCal]

Dean and Crowley.....Cas and Sam....the pairings seem off, somehow. Is Dean trying to hunt down Gadreel with Crowley? Is Castiel trying to help Sam heal? Watch and then discuss here!

[AntiArbitrator]

PB&J with grape jelly is the best! I knew I liked that angel for some reason.

[AntiArbitrator]

I enjoyed the episode. It deserves a 4.5.

I loved the twist that Supernatural gave to the Cain story. Maybe I enjoyed it so much because I have always felt Cain got a bum rap. Omundson played the role very well.

I enjoyed Tara’s openness about her fling with John Winchester and her cougar vibes toward Dean. I loved the knee giving her a warning a demon was near.

I was expecting some fireworks with Crowley and Dean working together and they did not disappoint me. Both Dean and Crowley had some good lines and I enjoyed watching Dean defend himself against the demons. I am glad Crowley had a good explanation for why he did not defend Dean because I wondered what game he was playing.

I am not happy with Dean receiving the mark of Cain. If he kills Cain, how will Dean get rid of the mark?

I also enjoyed the male bonding between Sam and Castiel. I hope Castiel convinced Sam that his life is precious and he should not run toward death. A hug between Sam and Cas was a long time coming. Even though it was awkward, it was warm and sincere.

There have been so many similarities between Sam’s failures and Castiel’s failures that it seemed logical for them to help each other to mend.

My favorite lines from Cas to Sam:

“When I was human, I died, and that showed me that life is precious and it must be protected at all costs, even a life as pig-headed as a Winchester’s.”

“Nothing is worth losing you. Being human didn’t just change my view of food; it changed my view of you. I can relate now to how you feel.”

“The only person who has screwed things up more consistently than you is me. And now I know what that guilt feels like. And I know what it means to feel sorry, Sam. I am sorry."

“Old me, I would’ve just kept going. I would’ve jammed that needle in deeper until you died, because the ends always justified the means. But what I went through, that PB&J taught me that angels can change. So who knows, maybe Winchesters can too.”

My favorite peanut butter sandwich is PBJ with grape jelly also. Too bad Castiel can no longer enjoy it.

My favorite lines from Dean, Crowley and Cain:

Crowley: “This bar is a bust. That waitress is trouble with a capital VD”

Crowley: I’ve been inside your brother. We’re practically family.
Dean: “We are the furthest thing from family. You got that, dick bag?”

Dean: “Look, I get it, you’re retired. And we’re not here to get between you and the demon A.A.R.P.”

Cain: “Since when does the great Dean Winchester ask for help? That doesn’t sound like the man I’ve read about on demon bathroom walls.”

Crowley: “Your problem is that nobody hates you more than you do.”

[SoCal]

Second episode in a row that I give a 4+. Maybe I should make that part of the ratings...hmmmm.

Where do I start? With Dean drunk in a bar joining forces with Crowley, or Sam and Casitle ruminating over human enjoyment of eating a PB&J?

I thought Castiel did a good job of talking Sam down from his anger at Dean, although, even by the end of the episode we saw that Sam wasn't quite ready to have Dean around. "He left, we can take care of this." Oh, Sam, when are you going to be able to forgive your brother for making mistakes....just like you do?

As for Dean and Crowley, well, that was the real meat of the episode. Going to one of John's storage lockers..."Hunter's Hogwarts," (best line of the episode! ), and finding a photo of the hunter John teamed with when he first went looking for the blade. Wow, I wish I looked as good as she does! She reminded me of Ellen, but juuuuuust a bit more buff. Sorry to see she only lasted one episode. Like Frank, she may have made a good occasional character.

Finding Cain's house and Dean fighting all those demons was great. Good to see Dean in full fight mode. But then to see that Cain knew about Dean and was testing whether or not he was "like me," a killer...that reminded me of the episode with Veritas when Dean said to her, "I'm not a father, I'm a killer," almost made me cry because Dean is so much more than that. He doesn't kill at random, he kills monsters and demons while trying to save innocent people.

And now that the mark of Cain has been passed on to him, well, what does that mean besides being able to use the blade. Will it make Dean vicious? Will he not care if innocent people get caught in his range of fire (sort of like soulless Sam)? And how will it affect his relationship with Sam. Remember Cain killed Abel. Will Dean try to kill Sam? How does he get rid of the mark since it can only be passed to someone like Cain (and Dean)?

Looking at next week's previews, I guess the boys are hunting together again. Wonder if it's tense or if Sam has decided that he's not pissed at Dean anymore? And Garth. Garth is back.....living with werewolves? Is he a werewolf? Are we going to lose another continuing character, because I can't believe Dean and Sam are going to let a pack of werewolves live?

As for Crowley and Castiel.....well, we know Crowley went looking for the blade, but how long would that take the King of Hell to locate? Remember when Castiel (in the "Soulless Sam" season) told Dean he was going to "look everywhere" for something and he only disappeared for about 40 seconds? And when Dean asked him where he had gone, Castiel told him, "Everywhere"? Shouldn't that mean that Crowley would be able to locate the blade that, according to him, he had been looking for, for decades, in a few seconds? And Castiel....shouldn't he be able to find Metatron and Gadreel in as short a timeline?

I liked the darkness of these first two episodes. I hope that this season we're done with dogs and other silly stories. The little touches of humor in this episode are the way I like it, not full-blown comic episodes I've complained about in the past. Well, I'll just have to wait and see what next week brings.

[AntiArbitrator]

SoCal, that is an excellent recap.

I just remembered something that made me burst out laughing. When Cain trapped Crowley and Dean in his home, Crowley made the sign of the cross and Dean looked at him as if he was crazy. I can't stop laughing at that. It was also funny when Crowley referred to the two of them hunting together as "I love a good buddy comedy." At first, I thought he said "good bloody comedy".

I will be smiling about this episode for a long time. I will watch it again when I catch up with Justified and some other shows.

[SoCal]

Thanks, AA. Right back at you. Crowley has the best "snark" in Hell. I'll be laughing over "Don't they teach note taking in Hunter's Hogwarts?" forever.

I've been thinking about the Dean "self hate." Where did that come from? When we first met Dean way back in 2005, he was a happy hunter. Determined and serious when he had to be but at peace with his place in the world, "saving people, hunting things, (2nd episode of the series!)...the family business." Did it all come about because John went ot Hell in return for Dean not dying? All this self-loathing seems to stem from that. But Dean saw John get out of Hell and seemingly taken up into Heaven. After all, we saw bright sparkly lights surround him and he was smiling as he disappeard. Has Dean never gotten over that?

[AntiArbitrator]

There were several incidents that shook Dean's confidence in what he was doing.

He took his father's death very hard. He idolized John and as time went on, people seemed to convince him that John used him. That really sucked.

When Bobby told him that there were real people suffering inside of demons, that shocked Dean and made him think of all the times they did not consider that. (Of course, by season 8, it no longer bothered them again.)

When they met the vampires who did not drink human blood, it shook Dean's faith in what he had been taught all of his life and he was bitter about that. He was taught that if it was a monster, kill it and he had never questioned John about that, but Sam always did.

He tortured people in Hell and he enjoyed it. He felt that made him a bad person.

Then, when Alastair told him he broke the first seal, he was crushed.

Dean has tried so hard to look after people and it really hurts him when he cannot save everyone. Dean needs a hug from his brother.

[novemberschild]

Like SoCal, I barely know where to start, I like this episode but not quite as much as last week, but it was still very good.

I think I will start with the obvious -Jensen was smoking hot in this episode! Jared and Misha were nice looking as always but there was just "something " about Jensen in this one

On to more serious matters. I enjoyed the character pairings this week, I was glad to see Dean and Crowley spend some time together this week, I think Crowley sees Dean as someone who can be manipulated but I also think Crowley may look upon Dean as a very worthy opponent, and opponent may not be the right word, but they aren't quite friends and yet they aren't quite enemies. I think since Crowley's brush with humanity he may also care a little for Dean, when the mark of Cain was being transferred Dean was in a great deal of pain, you could hear Crowley call Dean's name but Dean said I'm fine and brushed him off. I am wondering why Dean who was hell bent on killing Gadreel last week let Crowley talk him into killing Abbadon so quickly this week. What changed or does Dean just have so much self hate, and loathing and guilt inside that he is open to taking out anyone bad?
I am very concerned /worried about Dean, what will the mark of Cain do to him, will it make him evil, will it slowly take away his humanity? Dean is just broken and is barely hanging on, his anger, guilt and grief seem to be the only things pushing him along. I just don't want Dean to lose his contact with humanity and do something that he can't (in his mind) come back from. I think he needs to talk to Sam or Cas very soon, they seem to be the only ones capable of making him think about his actions. However at this moment in time Sam doesn't want to have anything to do with Dean, so it may fall on Cas to help guide these two strong willed, pigheaded guys back to working/talking to each other. Cas did try to offer support and comfort to Dean in the last episode and we see him trying to help Sam both physically and emotionally in this week. Cas knows how these two feel about each other even when they have pissed each other off and have hid things and have lied to one another. Dean and Sam are brothers and they love each other and that family bond, that love for one another may be the strongest thing that pulls them back together. I think with Cas in the middle trying to sort things out and be a "brother to them both" it may be the best thing for them in the long run. I know some may think that Cas isn't a real brother to them, and no he isn't a real brother, but he is part of their little family unit and he is one of the few that they have, and to me he counts.

I liked seeing Sam and Cas together this week, they have such similar paths and have both done bad things with good intentions. I think Cas helped Sam realize that life was precious and that sacrificing yourself wasn't the only way to fix a situation. I think Sam felt the only way to "atone" for Kevin's death was to die himself, but Cas opened his eyes that it wasn't the only way. I LOVED the fact that Sam hugged Cas, it solidifies the fact that Cas is family for me. I also think that Cas didn't take all the leftover grace that was in Sam only because he didn't want to kill Sam, and that he healed Sam quickly after that so no more grace could be taken from Sam.
I don't normally like the guys away from each other for very long, but I think if they can have a little time away from one another they will calm down some and communicate with each other and get to a point where they can discuss what has happened, I know it won't be a long conversation but one can hope.

I am not familiar with the guy that played Cain but he was really good, he brought Cain to life and made him menacing and powerful without being overt. I could also see hints of he and Dean having things in common, both the older brothers, and both trying to protect their younger brothers.
I found the end scene of Dean by himself alone very sad. Dean doesn't do well by himself, and he needs someone to help him, to support him, to talk to him and let him know that not everything is his fault and to let go of some of the guilt and self loathing.
We have had three strong episodes, let's please not go back to silly ones. SPN has added so many different layers this season to the mythology of the show that it can stick with those stories and not have to rely on silly doggy ones. Here's hoping that we have more like the last 3

[AntiArbitrator]

Jan 22, 2014 21:38:54 GMT -5 novemberschild said:

Like SoCal, I barely know where to start, I like this episode but not quite as much as last week, but it was still very good.

November, I enjoyed reading your very thoughtful insights into this episode and I just want to add my two-cents worth of responses.

I think I will start with the obvious -Jensen was smoking hot in this episode! Jared and Misha were nice looking as always but there was just "something " about Jensen in this one

Jensen in action mode is always hot!

On to more serious matters. I enjoyed the character pairings this week, I was glad to see Dean and Crowley spend some time together this week, I think Crowley sees Dean as someone who can be manipulated but I also think Crowley may look upon Dean as a very worthy opponent, and opponent may not be the right word, but they aren't quite friends and yet they aren't quite enemies. I think since Crowley's brush with humanity he may also care a little for Dean, when the mark of Cain was being transferred Dean was in a great deal of pain, you could hear Crowley call Dean's name but Dean said I'm fine and brushed him off. I am wondering why Dean who was hell bent on killing Gadreel last week let Crowley talk him into killing Abbadon so quickly this week. What changed or does Dean just have so much self hate, and loathing and guilt inside that he is open to taking out anyone bad?

I guess since Gadreel was MIA, Dean went along with Crowley; plus Crowley did do him a big favor by helping Sam.

I am very concerned /worried about Dean, what will the mark of Cain do to him, will it make him evil, will it slowly take away his humanity? Dean is just broken and is barely hanging on, his anger, guilt and grief seem to be the only things pushing him along. I just don't want Dean to lose his contact with humanity and do something that he can't (in his mind) come back from.

That is my #1 concern for Dean. Dean went to the dark side when he was in Hell and he felt guilty about that. If the mark of Cain brings back those dark feelings, he might have trouble overcoming them.

I think he needs to talk to Sam or Cas very soon, they seem to be the only ones capable of making him think about his actions. However at this moment in time Sam doesn't want to have anything to do with Dean, so it may fall on Cas to help guide these two strong willed, pigheaded guys back to working/talking to each other. Cas did try to offer support and comfort to Dean in the last episode and we see him trying to help Sam both physically and emotionally in this week. Cas knows how these two feel about each other even when they have pissed each other off and have hid things and have lied to one another. Dean and Sam are brothers and they love each other and that family bond, that love for one another may be the strongest thing that pulls them back together. I think with Cas in the middle trying to sort things out and be a "brother to them both" it may be the best thing for them in the long run. I know some may think that Cas isn't a real brother to them, and no he isn't a real brother, but he is part of their little family unit and he is one of the few that they have, and to me he counts.

Dean has difficulty talking about his feelings. I hope that if it is necessary, either Sam, Cas or – heaven forbid – Garth will slap some sense into Dean. No one will give up on him. Dean has been afraid for a long time that he is not righteous and this might be the test he needs to prove to himself that he is a good man.

I liked seeing Sam and Cas together this week, they have such similar paths and have both done bad things with good intentions. I think Cas helped Sam realize that life was precious and that sacrificing yourself wasn't the only way to fix a situation. I think Sam felt the only way to "atone" for Kevin's death was to die himself, but Cas opened his eyes that it wasn't the only way. I LOVED the fact that Sam hugged Cas, it solidifies the fact that Cas is family for me. I also think that Cas didn't take all the leftover grace that was in Sam only because he didn't want to kill Sam, and that he healed Sam quickly after that so no more grace could be taken from Sam.

Oh…do you think Cas had another good reason for leaving some grace in Sam? Castiel did seem to be pondering something but I could not guess what it was. That might turn out to be very interesting.

Those were the best Sam and Castiel scenes I have seen.

I don't normally like the guys away from each other for very long, but I think if they can have a little time away from one another they will calm down some and communicate with each other and get to a point where they can discuss what has happened, I know it won't be a long conversation but one can hope.

It never bothered me when the boys would get mad at each other and start rolling around on the floor and breaking furniture because I knew that would get it out of their system. Then, they could move on. Now they get mad at each other and take a long time to resolve it. As long as they resolve it and still love each other, I will be okay with it.

I am not familiar with the guy that played Cain but he was really good, he brought Cain to life and made him menacing and powerful without being overt. I could also see hints of he and Dean having things in common, both the older brothers, and both trying to protect their younger brothers.

I loved him in this role. It was a much better role for him than playing the straight man in Psych. He was the detective whose cases Psych would interfere with.

I found the end scene of Dean by himself alone very sad. Dean doesn't do well by himself, and he needs someone to help him, to support him, to talk to him and let him know that not everything is his fault and to let go of some of the guilt and self loathing.

I agree.

I never expected to wish for Crowley to hurry back to Dean. How times have changed!

We have had three strong episodes, let's please not go back to silly ones. SPN has added so many different layers this season to the mythology of the show that it can stick with those stories and not have to rely on silly doggy ones. Here's hoping that we have more like the last 3

That would certainly be wonderful.

[novemberschild]

Hi Anti, thanks for your comments.
I think Cas left the little bit of grace in Sam because he knew it would kill Sam if he took it all out, and Cas didn't want Sam to die. I think he quickly healed Sam so that at a later point no one else could take the grace out of Sam, and killing him then.

I do agree with you, Cas seems to be thinking about something in the last several episodes, I am actually kind of worried about it, I am hoping he doesn't do something foolhardy like sacrifice himself to save or protect the guys in their battles that are lining up for them this season.

I have hopes that if Dean does start to go off the deep end and starts down a dark path that Sam and Cas combined can pull him back, I would love to see Sam and Cas team up to save Dean

I hadn't thought about it being a test for Dean to prove to himself that he was a good and honorable man, that is an interesting observation, I like that. Dean is a better person than he gives himself credit, I think Dean and Sam and Cas all have some of the same feelings and issues and have good intentions but they have bad consequences.

Yes, Dean is not good at being by himself, he needs someone like Sam or Cas back with him pronto!
I also think that Crowley knows a whole lot more than he is telling right now and at some point we need to find out what the bad effects are of Dean having the mark of Cain.

[AntiArbitrator]

I hope to see Dean, Sam and Castiel traveling together and working together during the rest of the season.

I did not mind the "guinea pig" humor and I am so glad that they are not making Cas look stupid this season.

Crowley always knows more than anybody and everybody else...I have to admire that. But how does a demon go to the bottom of the deepest ocean without the salt water skinning him to death?

[novemberschild]

I would love to see a couple of episodes of the guys traveling and hunting together this season, it might would take down the worry I have for them this season a couple of notches.

I think maybe Crowley will either have another being(doesn't have to be demon) to go get the blade or maybe the salt water isn't the same concentration as a salt ring? I don't know? just a guess

[AntiArbitrator]

Good thinking that Crowley will have someone else get the blade. He is good at making deals and at threatening people.

I am looking forward to the guys hunting together too. Whenever there is a scene where three or more of them are walking down a road, it reminds me of the westerns that I loved. Tough guys who are ready to take on the bad guys even though they are outnumbered.

[SoCal]

Gotta tell ya, if the remaining episodes of the season are as good as this one, I don't care if they're together or apart. I just want good stories and lots of action. We all know they'll get back together at some point so stop worrying and just pray for more good episodes and no more "dog" episodes!