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Post by geordiegirl1967 on Feb 4, 2012 20:08:03 GMT -5
Hangon if you burn someones bones you can't be a ghost? ... Yep that is canon. Unless there is some genetic material - hair, severed limb etc - left over that didn't get burned. That's why hunters' corpses are salted and burned, so they can't come back as ghosts. There were no ghosts in the Paris Hilton ep. It was a god. Sam is great at research but Bobby was better. He could read more ancient languages, understood where to look in his own library, and had more contacts he could call on. |
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Post by benson35 on Feb 4, 2012 20:15:01 GMT -5
So if there is genetic material then they can come back as a ghost? Sorry I just can't remember since it seems to be so along ago that we've dealt with ghosts its more angels and crap lol.
So in other words the flask could mean Bobby is there? I was kind of hoping not though thats all. I would rather it be kind of what Jared was insinuating with his mind playing tricks or Deans mind. Like we can't see Sam's mind at play with Lucifer but we are getting little hints that he's seeing and hearing things that aren't there.
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Rose
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Post by Rose on Feb 4, 2012 23:41:01 GMT -5
Hangon if you burn someones bones you can't be a ghost? ... Yep that is canon. Unless there is some genetic material - hair, severed limb etc - left over that didn't get burned. That's why hunters' corpses are salted and burned, so they can't come back as ghosts. There were no ghosts in the Paris Hilton ep. It was a god. Sam is great at research but Bobby was better. He could read more ancient languages, understood where to look in his own library, and had more contacts he could call on. No, not only that can keep them from moving on. You can burn a corpse, but if a really powerful emotion or connection is keeping them from moving on, that will happen too. I remember Sam saying it once, I think. I don't remember which episode. Sure, a genetic piece of material could keep them from moving on, but if the spirit's attachment is strong enough, it can keep them on as a ghost. That I'm almost pretty sure of. I'm also pretty sure I recall one of the boys saying a ghost can hitch a ride too. |
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Post by percysowner on Feb 5, 2012 0:36:34 GMT -5
Yep that is canon. Unless there is some genetic material - hair, severed limb etc - left over that didn't get burned. That's why hunters' corpses are salted and burned, so they can't come back as ghosts. There were no ghosts in the Paris Hilton ep. It was a god. Sam is great at research but Bobby was better. He could read more ancient languages, understood where to look in his own library, and had more contacts he could call on. No, not only that can keep them from moving on. You can burn a corpse, but if a really powerful emotion or connection is keeping them from moving on, that will happen too. I remember Sam saying it once, I think. I don't remember which episode. Sure, a genetic piece of material could keep them from moving on, but if the spirit's attachment is strong enough, it can keep them on as a ghost. That I'm almost pretty sure of. I'm also pretty sure I recall one of the boys saying a ghost can hitch a ride too. Burning the bones does not insure that someone can't still be a ghost. Molly in Roadkill was cremated. She came back because she wanted to find her husband. The Hookman's bones were burned, but because his silver hook had been made into jewelry, he was able to come back. Bobby could still be around because of the flask, or his books, or because he loves Sam and Dean. I understand Sam saying that he isn't though. I don't think Sam would think that Bobby would try to stay around and risk becoming what he hunted. Also, Sam is having a hard time telling reality from hallucinations. He has to keep his world view simple and he can't allow himself to believe something just because he wants to. So he is going with the idea that Bobby was burned and is not a ghost. |
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Rose
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Post by Rose on Feb 5, 2012 1:50:03 GMT -5
No, not only that can keep them from moving on. You can burn a corpse, but if a really powerful emotion or connection is keeping them from moving on, that will happen too. I remember Sam saying it once, I think. I don't remember which episode. Sure, a genetic piece of material could keep them from moving on, but if the spirit's attachment is strong enough, it can keep them on as a ghost. That I'm almost pretty sure of. I'm also pretty sure I recall one of the boys saying a ghost can hitch a ride too. Burning the bones does not insure that someone can't still be a ghost. Molly in Roadkill was cremated. She came back because she wanted to find her husband. The Hookman's bones were burned, but because his silver hook had been made into jewelry, he was able to come back. Bobby could still be around because of the flask, or his books, or because he loves Sam and Dean. I understand Sam saying that he isn't though. I don't think Sam would think that Bobby would try to stay around and risk becoming what he hunted. Also, Sam is having a hard time telling reality from hallucinations. He has to keep his world view simple and he can't allow himself to believe something just because he wants to. So he is going with the idea that Bobby was burned and is not a ghost. I know. That's what I was trying to say. I didn't say that burning bones is the end all of somebody becoming a ghost. I said that a person or a particularly powerful emotion or just the longing of wanting to be alive and an attachment to that person keeps them pinned to the world and unable to move on. |
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Post by pentadactyl on Feb 5, 2012 12:17:48 GMT -5
I haven't seen this or the past few eps yet (waiting to marathon), so I can't comment on specifics.
But my general impression was that burning overrides emotion. Emotional therapy was the method they resort to when something made the salt-and-burn difficult or impossible i.e. scattered remains, missing bits they couldn't trace down, other factors that would be hard to account for. But if they were able to confirm that all pieces were burned, that would be a definite end to things. Of course, this can be (and has been in the past) difficult to confirm. They can't really ever be sure that they've gotten every bit.
But I don't think it can boil down to just 'he cared too much'. All ghosts have some strong emotional reason keeping them around. If emotion were able to override burning, it'd happen all the time. I don't buy that Bobby's love for the boys is so extraordinarily powerful that it trumps all those incredibly traumatic and heart-string pulling stories the ghosts that have been on this show have had over the years.
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Post by geordiegirl1967 on Feb 5, 2012 15:07:55 GMT -5
I haven't seen this or the past few eps yet (waiting to marathon), so I can't comment on specifics. But my general impression was that burning overrides emotion. Emotional therapy was the method they resort to when something made the salt-and-burn difficult or impossible i.e. scattered remains, missing bits they couldn't trace down, other factors that would be hard to account for. But if they were able to confirm that all pieces were burned, that would be a definite end to things. Of course, this can be (and has been in the past) difficult to confirm. They can't really ever be sure that they've gotten every bit. But I don't think it can boil down to just 'he cared too much'. All ghosts have some strong emotional reason keeping them around. If emotion were able to override burning, it'd happen all the time. I don't buy that Bobby's love for the boys is so extraordinarily powerful that it trumps all those incredibly traumatic and heart-string pulling stories the ghosts that have been on this show have had over the years. Totally agree. It has been long established on the show that salting and burning all the remains kills ghosts. Only doesn't work when bits are missing. The Hookmans hand was part of his body which is why his ghost survived. In YF the ghost survived after cremation because he was dragged behind a car so his remains weren't complete. In Provenance the ghosts hair was used on the doll. When that was burned = dead ghost. In RSitM they had to burn the amputated hand. In ASS a lock of the ghosts hair had been kept by his dad. There are loads of other examples. This canon is one of the cornerstones of the show. The whole reason hunters bodies are salted and burned is to prevent them from becoming ghosts. All ghosts have a strong emotional reason for staying behind, but that cant overcome salting and burning. |
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lala2
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Post by lala2 on Feb 5, 2012 15:09:37 GMT -5
Lemongrover, great post! I couldn't agree more w/you, esp. about Dean's depression. I'm over it. I honestly don't care what snaps him out of his current funk as long as it happens soon.
Pentadactyl, I also agree w/you about the burning overriding the strong emotional ties. If all it took were strong emotional ties to keep someone around, then I would think the boys would run into ghost much more often than they do. I agreed w/Sam. They presumably salted and burned Bobby's bones, so why would Sam think it was Bobby's ghost helping them? I think some genetic material of Bobby's is still around unless Sera & Co. decide to change the rules on how ghosts work.
I do agree about the research. I don't understand why the boys can't seem to research anymore. And someone somewhere pointed out how they're ALWAYS FBI agents lately. This time, it made sense, but I would like to see them be something else once in a whle.
I gave the episode a "6" or "7." It was okay. Nothing to write home about though.
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Rose
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Post by Rose on Feb 5, 2012 19:03:45 GMT -5
I haven't seen this or the past few eps yet (waiting to marathon), so I can't comment on specifics. But my general impression was that burning overrides emotion. Emotional therapy was the method they resort to when something made the salt-and-burn difficult or impossible i.e. scattered remains, missing bits they couldn't trace down, other factors that would be hard to account for. But if they were able to confirm that all pieces were burned, that would be a definite end to things. Of course, this can be (and has been in the past) difficult to confirm. They can't really ever be sure that they've gotten every bit. But I don't think it can boil down to just 'he cared too much'. All ghosts have some strong emotional reason keeping them around. If emotion were able to override burning, it'd happen all the time. I don't buy that Bobby's love for the boys is so extraordinarily powerful that it trumps all those incredibly traumatic and heart-string pulling stories the ghosts that have been on this show have had over the years. Totally agree. It has been long established on the show that salting and burning all the remains kills ghosts. Only doesn't work when bits are missing. The Hookmans hand was part of his body which is why his ghost survived. In YF the ghost survived after cremation because he was dragged behind a car so his remains weren't complete. In Provenance the ghosts hair was used on the doll. When that was burned = dead ghost. In RSitM they had to burn the amputated hand. In ASS a lock of the ghosts hair had been kept by his dad. There are loads of other examples. This canon is one of the cornerstones of the show. The whole reason hunters bodies are salted and burned is to prevent them from becoming ghosts. All ghosts have a strong emotional reason for staying behind, but that cant overcome salting and burning. Then what was Molly? She was cremated, and yet she still remained behind because of her feelings for David, her husband. She couldn't move on because she couldn't let go of him or her love for him. Those were very powerful emotions keeping her attached to the world. There was not one single piece of her or her DNA left behind. It was simply her love for her husband and not wanting to let him go. She couldn't be salted and burned and they didn't salt and burn David to get rid of her or help her move on. |
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Post by geordiegirl1967 on Feb 5, 2012 19:36:29 GMT -5
Totally agree. It has been long established on the show that salting and burning all the remains kills ghosts. Only doesn't work when bits are missing. The Hookmans hand was part of his body which is why his ghost survived. In YF the ghost survived after cremation because he was dragged behind a car so his remains weren't complete. In Provenance the ghosts hair was used on the doll. When that was burned = dead ghost. In RSitM they had to burn the amputated hand. In ASS a lock of the ghosts hair had been kept by his dad. There are loads of other examples. This canon is one of the cornerstones of the show. The whole reason hunters bodies are salted and burned is to prevent them from becoming ghosts. All ghosts have a strong emotional reason for staying behind, but that cant overcome salting and burning. Then what was Molly? She was cremated, and yet she still remained behind because of her feelings for David, her husband. She couldn't move on because she couldn't let go of him or her love for him. Those were very powerful emotions keeping her attached to the world. There was not one single piece of her or her DNA left behind. It was simply her love for her husband and not wanting to let him go. She couldn't be salted and burned and they didn't salt and burn David to get rid of her or help her move on. There will have been blood on the car she was in that won't have been cremated, and she didn't go to the afterlife because she didn't know she was dead. The canon on burning bones is pretty clear IMO. It even works on demons. |
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Rose
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Post by Rose on Feb 5, 2012 20:21:13 GMT -5
Then what was Molly? She was cremated, and yet she still remained behind because of her feelings for David, her husband. She couldn't move on because she couldn't let go of him or her love for him. Those were very powerful emotions keeping her attached to the world. There was not one single piece of her or her DNA left behind. It was simply her love for her husband and not wanting to let him go. She couldn't be salted and burned and they didn't salt and burn David to get rid of her or help her move on. There will have been blood on the car she was in that won't have been cremated, and she didn't go to the afterlife because she didn't know she was dead. The canon on burning bones is pretty clear IMO. It even works on demons. Blood? Seriously? I'm sorry, but I still believe that her love for her husband and not wanting to let him go is what kept her tethered to the earth. I think it's pretty silly to believe that a bit of dried blood on some of the car would've kept her attached to the world. The brothers didn't go and salt and burn the car to help her move on in the end. She didn't go to the afterlife because of her love for David and her connection to him still kept her from moving on, despite the fact if she knew she was dead or not. I don't see why it would be so wrong to believe the most powerful human emotion (in this case, love) could keep a ghost from moving on. |
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Post by geordiegirl1967 on Feb 5, 2012 20:28:20 GMT -5
There will have been blood on the car she was in that won't have been cremated, and she didn't go to the afterlife because she didn't know she was dead. The canon on burning bones is pretty clear IMO. It even works on demons. Blood? Seriously? I'm sorry, but I still believe that her love for her husband and not wanting to let him go is what kept her tethered to the earth. I think it's pretty silly to believe that a bit of dried blood on some of the car would've kept her attached to the world. The brothers didn't go and salt and burn the car to help her move on in the end. She didn't go to the afterlife because of her love for David and her connection to him still kept her from moving on, despite the fact if she knew she was dead or not. I don't see why it would be so wrong to believe the most powerful human emotion (in this case, love) could keep a ghost from moving on. Rose we are getting a bit ot here, but how is this any more unbelievable than the blood on the road from the guy who was dragged behind a car keeping him as a ghost in Yellow Fever, or the hair in various eps eg Playthings, ASS, or the transplanted kidney in M3, or the severed hand in RSitM, or the Hookmans hook. It is canon in the show that every bit of a persons remains have to be burned to get rid of a ghost. |
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Rose
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Post by Rose on Feb 5, 2012 20:45:34 GMT -5
Blood? Seriously? I'm sorry, but I still believe that her love for her husband and not wanting to let him go is what kept her tethered to the earth. I think it's pretty silly to believe that a bit of dried blood on some of the car would've kept her attached to the world. The brothers didn't go and salt and burn the car to help her move on in the end. She didn't go to the afterlife because of her love for David and her connection to him still kept her from moving on, despite the fact if she knew she was dead or not. I don't see why it would be so wrong to believe the most powerful human emotion (in this case, love) could keep a ghost from moving on. Rose we are getting a bit ot here, but how is this any more unbelievable than the blood on the road from the guy who was dragged behind a car keeping him as a ghost in Yellow Fever, or the hair in various eps eg Playthings, ASS, or the transplanted kidney in M3, or the severed hand in RSitM, or the Hookmans hook. It is canon in the show that every bit of a persons remains have to be burned to get rid of a ghost. Human remains. Pieces of his body was scattered everywhere. Not just blood. Yeah, I get that that every bit of a person's remains have to be burned to get rid of the ghost, but such was not the case with Molly, and that's what I'm trying to point out. Why is it so hard to believe that something as strong as a wife's love for her husband and refusing to see the truth of it all could be something that would keep a ghost from moving on? I personally don't feel it is and I feel a bit ganged up on here because I feel a certain way. I feel like you're trying to tell me I'm wrong for believing what I believe and practically shoving down my throat that you're right and wrong. I'm not wrong for choosing to believe that something like that can keep a ghost from moving on. Even when they're cremated and nothing is left. We don't even know what happened to the car. For all we know, David could've had it fixed and cleaned up. I'm just saying. It's not completely impossible. It's Supernatural after all. I don't understand why you're trying to tell me I'm wrong. |
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Emmy88
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Post by Emmy88 on Feb 5, 2012 21:44:49 GMT -5
I agree with Rose here. A person can still be a ghost from having strong emotions even if the body was cremated such as Molly loving her husband in Roadkill. Sam said, "Some spirits hold on too tight. They can't let go." It's canon that there are some special cases that even if the body has been cremated and there aren't any other small amounts of remains that was missed that some people can still become a ghost just from very strong emotional attachments to something or someone on earth.
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Post by lemongrover on Feb 5, 2012 23:18:24 GMT -5
I don't think it matters about whether there is emotional connection, DNA, or an object that keeps a spirit on Earth. I think it depends on the case and the choice of the soul.
For example: Mary. Mary was burned (possibly alive) and there was nothing left. But her grieve and guilt over not being able to protect her sons allowed her to stay. So, having something like an object or DNA isn't always a necessity.
Bloody Mary was trapped by the mirror, she died in front of. But her body was cremated. Sometimes it's entrapment of the spirit.
Agent Hendrickson. I don't think Lilith left behind much of him or the others. But a spell forced him to come back from the dead. Sometimes it's spell work that makes a spirt.
Then there are cases in which the spirits have let go or been destroyed without having to have their bones burned like the "Pilot", "Playthings," "Houses of Holy," or "Red Sky at Morning."
Emotions play a huge role in why there are spirits. It could love or revenge, guilt or anger, or it could be just for the fun of it. Spirits can be forced to come back. But one thing all the spirits have in common are they are people who shouldn't be dead. They died horrible violent deaths before their time. That's is the greatest common factor of all spirits.
However, burning the bones are the ONLY way to make sure the spirit is destroyed. I think this is the only guarantee way to "kill" a spirit, but not a requirement to make a spirit. Burning the bones is the only way to "force" a ghost to make peace, but there are other methods. But it's difficult to find the weakest. And hunters probably don't want to go to the trouble of finding the soft spot when they can just grab a gas can and some salt. Burning the bones is easiest and safest way to destroy the spirit. However, it is the soul's choice to become a spirit.
I think the show has hinted that it's the act of not going with your reaper that decides whether or not you become a spirit. It's the souls' choice. Which means it isn't depended on bones, DNA material, or objects. If you don't leave when your Reaper says it's time, then you remain in a world where no one can see you and eventually go crazy until something triggers the spirit causing it harm the living. Then someone like hunters has to deal with it.
We know that Bobby was cremated. But we also saw that Bobby was going to hold on until the end. We know that Bobby was making a decision about whether or not he was going to go with his reaper. So, it is possible that he stayed behind. He could have made the decision to. But I agree with Sam. That is something that Sam and Dean want, which means nothing.
(And how in the world did I get a Bieber picture? There must be a ghost!! I'm off to go change that, immediately!)
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Post by evilsquirre1 on Feb 6, 2012 17:14:12 GMT -5
I gave this episode a 9 partly because shirtless Dean is always a good time.  But I guess I'm not as much of a fan of the stand alone episodes.  It's hard for me to picture Sam and Dean doing a regular hunts when they just found out from Cronos that the Leviathans are going to take over Earth and eat all the humans. Wouldn't that put regular hunts on the back burn.  I liked the Bobby hanging around and helping them hunt aspect. Yes they burned Bobby's bones, but Dean is walking around with Bobby's flask with his DNA all over it. So it is possible Bobby's haunting/helping Sam and Dean. BTW isn't the fact that Dean is drinking from the flask make it kind of like Dean is kissing Bobby?   I wonder if Dean's half amazon daughter is really dead. Sam and Dean didn't know for sure that shooting the Amazons would kill them. Maybe Emma was playing dead. I wonder what other tricks she knows? Maybe she could help with the Leviathans once she stops trying to crop off Dean's hands and feet. I hope the next episode brings back the Leviathans in some way and moves the season forward. |
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Post by evilsquirre1 on Feb 6, 2012 17:17:57 GMT -5
Thank you Youtube and hollowsouleatera.
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Post by evilsquirre1 on Feb 6, 2012 17:28:40 GMT -5
So if there is genetic material then they can come back as a ghost? Sorry I just can't remember since it seems to be so along ago that we've dealt with ghosts its more angels and crap lol. So in other words the flask could mean Bobby is there? I was kind of hoping not though thats all. I would rather it be kind of what Jared was insinuating with his mind playing tricks or Deans mind. Like we can't see Sam's mind at play with Lucifer but we are getting little hints that he's seeing and hearing things that aren't there. This should clear up all ghost issues you have. |
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Post by benson35 on Feb 6, 2012 20:01:33 GMT -5
So if there is genetic material then they can come back as a ghost? Sorry I just can't remember since it seems to be so along ago that we've dealt with ghosts its more angels and crap lol. So in other words the flask could mean Bobby is there? I was kind of hoping not though thats all. I would rather it be kind of what Jared was insinuating with his mind playing tricks or Deans mind. Like we can't see Sam's mind at play with Lucifer but we are getting little hints that he's seeing and hearing things that aren't there. This should clear up all ghost issues you have. I haven't seen that. I am still crying with laughter 10 minutes after watching it. So funny 'suckage' 'possibly all states' Oh so o.k. he could be around although he's becoming something the boys will need to get rid off since he'll become bitter right? lol..sorry I shouldn't laugh but now I'm going to be thinking of the GF everytime theres a hint of Bobby!ghost. |
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Post by benson35 on Feb 6, 2012 20:04:36 GMT -5
Thank you Youtube and hollowsouleatera. Can not watch this enough! Have you seen the cut version, no gore just Dean. Jensen needs to take off his shirt more often. Go running, gym, in bed, shower, anything....that body is beautiful. |
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jensenRick
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Post by jensenRick on Feb 9, 2012 2:06:16 GMT -5
It wasn't a bad episode, both brothers did well in it, but honestly- I was kinda bored.  I could probably blame it on having read spoilers, so I never once felt Dean's life was in any real danger, so the whole ep seemed to have no point other than to get Dean's shirt off. And I thought the intercut of the sex scene and assault was very gimmicky (obvious first time director), so I fast forwarded thru that. Here's hoping next week is better- I'm still much more pleased with this season than not. Whenever I want to lift my spirits, I just watch the wedding episode again. |
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But I guess I'm not as much of a fan of the stand alone episodes. 
It's hard for me to picture Sam and Dean doing a regular hunts when they just found out from Cronos that the Leviathans are going to take over Earth and eat all the humans. 
