The Castiel debate thread

[MariaARIS3]

I'm creating this thread because I find the whole "fight club" idea stupid. I don't want to fight with Cas fans, I want to debate with them.
I've stated many times what are the reasons that made me hate Cas. I won't go back in season 4 (I still have some issues form back then, but I'll leave them aside for the moment) and I will just focus on what Cas did in season 6.
First of all, I have to say that I don't consider "bad writing" as a valid argument, because this is the easiest excuse for every bad thing any character on the show has done.
So, what did Cas do in season 6?
a) he brought back Sam soulless
b)he worked with Crowley
c)he has been lying to the boys for half a year (I'm not counting the year he didn't even contact the boys)
d) he took down Sam's wall

The only thing I can't blame him for is (b) working for Crowley, since the boys have done it too. For all the others he has no excuses and I will explain why later. For now, I would really like to say what Cas fans have to say to defend him.

[ravanne]

I'll still argue that Castiel working with Crowley in season 6 was more of a problem than the brothers working with him in season 5. Back then, Crowley was king of the crossroads demons, not the Ruler of Hell. Pretty big distinction there. Crowley might have had significant power and influence, but he wasn't running the whole place and actually ended up on the wrong side of Lucifer and Lilith (since he threw in his lot with the Winchesters). Castiel knew who and what Crowley was when it made its bargain.

I would like to see an interesting defense of Castiel's behavior, but I have no patience for excuses. I don't buy the excuse that Raphael was such an enormous danger that any and all means were required to deal with him/her/it. Not when going to Crowley was Castiel's first act after getting its feather tail handed to it. Not telling Dean that Sam was alive was pretty unforgivable in my book and we never get get an explanation of how Sam's soul was left in the cage and why Castiel argued so strongly against not retrieving it. And I'd really like to see someone explain how breaking Sam's wall, knowing what it would do to Sam, can be at all rationalized.

[yimhappy]

OK, I'm game, somewhat.
I don't have a lot of free time. Debate takes more thought & energy than I can fit into a 15 minute work break, which is when I do most of my posting. My posts will have to be before/after work, Pacific coast hours. So, replies might take awhile, days even.

But, I guess I can give one answer quick, so you're not kept waiting.

Mar 1, 2012 13:55:17 GMT -5 ravanne said:

Not telling Dean that Sam was alive was pretty unforgivable in my book and we never get get an explanation of how Sam's soul was left in the cage and why Castiel argued so strongly against not retrieving it.

It looked like Cas was expecting Sam to tell Dean, then when Sam didn't, Cas looked confused. Cas at least knows that his people skills are rusty. Do you think he wants to get in-between the brotherly bond, if Sam/Dean don't want to talk about something??

If telling Dean was some delicate human social matter, why not leave it to competent humans like Sam/Bobby?? After all, Cas was up to his eyeballs in chaotic Heaven, then Civil War. Why shouldn't Cas trust Sam/Bobby to handle it??



As for why Cas argued so strongly against retrieving Sam's soul...
SPN never told us why, did they?? So every fan is going to think of their own answer, aren't we?

My reason is "dramatic reasons". SPN wanted us scared for Sam, so someone had to explain the danger. But more than that, be careful of making it sound like Cas was trying to stop Dean from retrieving Sam's soul.

Cas argued the cost, but Dean convinced Cas. During Caged Heat, Cas said he'd support Dean in retrieving Sam's soul. During LAV, Cas came to Dean & Sam's call to help & see how Sam was doing.



Now, here's my question for you to answer.
In EOMS, Dean said he "turned every stone" looking for a way to rescue Sam?? Why do you think that Dean never called Cas for any kind of help?? Brainstorming ideas, status of Lucifer's cage? Anything?? Doesn't that strike you as weird??

[MariaARIS3]

Mar 1, 2012 15:47:34 GMT -5 yimhappy said:

It looked like Cas was expecting Sam to tell Dean, then when Sam didn't, Cas looked confused. Cas at least knows that his people skills are rusty. Do you think he wants to get in-between the brotherly bond, if Sam/Dean don't want to talk about something??

If telling Dean was some delicate human social matter, why not leave it to competent humans like Sam/Bobby?? After all, Cas was up to his eyeballs in chaotic Heaven, then Civil War. Why shouldn't Cas trust Sam/Bobby to handle it??

I'm sorry but I can't understand this... If Cas brought Sam back for Dean and not for his own plans, he should have told Dean right after he brought him back, regardless of what Sam would do. The fact that he knew that Sam was working for Crowley (and for him) without Sam acknowledging that himself and the fact that he let the boys believe that it was Crowley the one who brought Sam back to make them work for Crowley make me believe that his intentions were bad. He brought Sam back to use him for his own plan. I don't know if he left his soul down there on purpose or not, but in the end it suited him very well.

As for why Cas argued so strongly against retrieving Sam's soul...
SPN never told us why, did they?? So every fan is going to think of their own answer, aren't we?

True, but thinking that it was Cas the one who could tell exactly how damaged Sam's soul was, it makes me loath him even more for taking down his wall.

Cas argued the cost, but Dean convinced Cas. During Caged Heat, Cas said he'd support Dean in retrieving Sam's soul. During LAV, Cas came to Dean & Sam's call to help & see how Sam was doing.

As it was proved, Cas wasn't just coming down to help Sam and Dean but to also spy on them... Because at the same time he was helping them, he also made sure to throw ashes in their eyes...

Now, here's my question for you to answer.
In EOMS, Dean said he "turned every stone" looking for a way to rescue Sam?? Why do you think that Dean never called Cas for any kind of help?? Brainstorming ideas, status of Lucifer's cage? Anything?? Doesn't that strike you as weird??

I don't remember if it was said if Dean had tried to call Castiel. Sam had been trying the whole year he was back though and Cas wouldn't respond. Even when he did to Dean, he said it was because they had some information useful to him, so I doubt that he would respond to Dean earlier, especially knowing what he had done with Sam.
If Dean didn't try anyway, maybe it was because he saw Cas not caring enough at the end of SS. For Cas it was over and he was ready to become the new sheriff in Heaven. Maybe Dean felt that he couldn't count on him anyway.

[ravanne]

Mar 1, 2012 15:47:34 GMT -5 yimhappy said:

Now, here's my question for you to answer.
In EOMS, Dean said he "turned every stone" looking for a way to rescue Sam?? Why do you think that Dean never called Cas for any kind of help?? Brainstorming ideas, status of Lucifer's cage? Anything?? Doesn't that strike you as weird??

Castiel had cut off all contact with Sam and Dean after Sam walked away from Lisa's house after seeing Dean there. We don't know if calling on Castiel was one of the "stones" that Dean tried, but we do know that Sam called on Castiel repeatedly and was ignored. And Castiel clearly did not tell Dean on its own that Sam was out (even if you do buy the argument that Castiel had no idea that Sam's soul was still in the cage). What possible reason could Castiel have for not telling Dean, especially if it suspection that something was very wrong with Sam. Even giving leeway on Castiel having a limited understanding of human interactions, it knew how much Dean loved his brother and how Sam's "death" all but destroyed Dean. Hiding the fact that Sam might be saved seems barbarically cruel.

I don't buy the idea that Castiel was such a complete moron that it couldn't figure out a way to clue Dean in on what was happening with Sam. Castiel might be clueless about chatting up women or sex, but it understands loyalty and brotherhood probably better than any being in the world. It knew that Sam's loss was the cause of enormous pain to Dean. It had spied on Dean on at least one occasion. It would not have been a hardship to drop a clue to tell Dean where Sam was.

We don't get a clear time line on when exactly Castiel joined up with Crowley and how long it was after it left Sam to fend for himself, but there is a clear indication that Sam in the state he was in was useful to Castiel's and Crowley's plans. A skilled hunter with no moral compass would go after whatever creature he was pointed at and not care about the consequences. The impression of Castiel having a vested interest in keeping Sam and Dean separated, and keeping Sam soulless just can't be shaken.

And we then get to what was for me the worst act that Castiel committed. Even granting that it might not have known for the year that it was using Sam for its own ends, it learned right after YCHTT that Sam's soul was not present in his body and was still in the cage. It then argued very strongly against Dean trying to retrieve Sam's soul. One might think that it was out of concern for Sam's life, but for an angel, what is the life a mortal. Even one that it counts as a "friend". The immortal soul is all that is important to Heaven, and is far more important than the mortal shell. The soul encompasses all that a human is and ever will be and it has always been stated that life is a distant second to the immortal soul. So how could Castiel, with any kind of conscience, leave the innocent soul of a friend in Hell? Especially knowing what was being done to Sam. Even if it cost Sam's mortal life, rescuing the soul would have been the very thing that an angel would have encourage. Instead, Castiel discouraged Dean at every turn. Because Castiel did not tell Dean when it first pulled Sam out what it had done, Sam's soul was trapped and tortured for decades longer than it might have needed to be. It was already there for over a century (hell time) by the time Dean and Sam were reunited, and remained trapped for decades more (again, hell time) by the time Death got him out.

I don't think that Dean "convinced" Castiel of anything regarding Sam's soul. He retrieved it without any help or input from Castiel, and did so at enormous risk to himself. Castiel showed up after the fact and acted delighted that Sam was apparently whole, but it wasn't due to its influence at all. Dean saved Sam in spite of Castiel, not with it. And as for its apparent "agreement" to save Sam's soul? Some nice play acting. It did everything to deter Dean, warning him repeatedly about the state Sam's soul was in but offering nothing to actually get Sam out or even offer a comfort of telling Dean that even if Sam lost his mortal life, his soul would be safe.

I think that in the end, given that Castiel was working with Crowley even to the point of protecting Crowley from the Winchesters really casts a dark shadow over all of its behaviors in season 6. You can't just write it off as innocent mistakes when there was clear motive and interest behind those acts.

[isitfridayyet]

Oh yay!! Ok I'm gonna cook up something pretty good for you guys after I do my homework. It's on like Donkey Kong!

[MariaARIS3]

So according to that article (which sucked btw, not because it was praising Castiel, but because it conveniently missed to mention all the bad things Castiel has done- and if you really want to be objective you must mention all things about a character/situation/whatever, good AND bad) and some comments I've read, some Cas fans seem to
a) believe that Dean owes an apology to Castiel
b)completely ignore the fact that Cas took down Sam's wall

And I remember seeing similar comments back on the Lounge, where most of the Cas fans were really upset with Sam trying to stab Cas, but didn't even mention the fact that Cas destroyed Sam's wall. They were even more upset for Balthazar getting killed than Sam getting hurt...
Of course everyone has the right to not care for a character or dislike him, but ignoring the facts just to prove right the character they love... I find it wrong...
And excuses like "Sam's wall would collapse anyway" or "it was a good thing, because it was proved that Sam was strong enough to survive" or "he didn't try to kill him, like Sam did" or "Sam stabbed him, so they're even now" or "he promised to fix him" are just lame...


And exactly what is it that Dean should apologize to Castiel for???
-Offering to help several times and Castiel refusing to accept it?
-Being lied to about Crowley and being kept in the dark about Castiel's plans?
-Still offering to help Castiel even after he found out the truth?
-Trying to stop him from opening Purgatory?

How did exactly Dean betray Castiel?

[ravanne]

Mar 2, 2012 5:49:15 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

So according to that article (which sucked btw, not because it was praising Castiel, but because it conveniently missed to mention all the bad things Castiel has done- and if you really want to be objective you must mention all things about a character/situation/whatever, good AND bad) and some comments I've read, some Cas fans seem to
a) believe that Dean owes an apology to Castiel
b)completely ignore the fact that Cas took down Sam's wall

And I remember seeing similar comments back on the Lounge, where most of the Cas fans were really upset with Sam trying to stab Cas, but didn't even mention the fact that Cas destroyed Sam's wall. They were even more upset for Balthazar getting killed than Sam getting hurt...
Of course everyone has the right to not care for a character or dislike him, but ignoring the facts just to prove right the character they love... I find it wrong...
And excuses like "Sam's wall would collapse anyway" or "it was a good thing, because it was proved that Sam was strong enough to survive" or "he didn't try to kill him, like Sam did" or "Sam stabbed him, so they're even now" or "he promised to fix him" are just lame...


And exactly what is it that Dean should apologize to Castiel for???
-Offering to help several times and Castiel refusing to accept it?
-Being lied to about Crowley and being kept in the dark about Castiel's plans?
-Still offering to help Castiel even after he found out the truth?
-Trying to stop him from opening Purgatory?

How did exactly Dean betray Castiel?

I had to stop reading that article after the first paragraph because my dinner was about to make a reappearance but it amply showed the level of delusion I've seen in some ECGs (not all of them, but some). They want to cling to this illusion of Castiel being some kind of poor innocent dupe that was cruelly lead astray by Crowley, abandoned by Dean and assaulted by Sam without cause or provocation. None of this fits with what we were shown in the show and even in Castiel's own words. Still, the delusion continues and seems to have only deepened in Castiel's absence.

I think that part of this is rooted in the fact that its fans are unable to separate what Castiel actually is from the image that the shell it wears gives. Castiel was not some innocent, naive babe in the woods. This is a being that his lived for many, many thousands of years. It watched humans crawl from the primordial ooze. It watched hundreds if civilizations rise and fall. It was a warrior of Heaven. Perhaps it was ignorant of matters of sex or basic human interactions, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have an understanding of how demons operate, that making an agreement with the King of Hell is probably a monumentally bad idea and that turning on its friends, allies and brethren is never a good idea. But some got taken in by the fact that Castiel is wearing a mild, soft-eyed and gentle-looking man and forget just what that shell is holding within.

The idea that Dean owes Castiel anything, least of all an apology is to me ludicrous. Castiel has taken an enormous amount from Dean and left a wounded, broken man in its wake. It helped to break the bond of trust that Dean had with Sam by encouraging Dean to view Sam's actions in the worst possible light. It forced Dean to relive the horrors of what he endured in Hell by kidnapping him and forcing him to torture Alistair. It kidnapped Dean again to prevent him from stopping Sam from going after Lilith alone. It lied to Dean repeatedly about Heaven's motives regarding Lilith and not telling Dean that they wanted Sam to break the last seal. It hid from Dean the fact that his brother was alive and then argued with Dean against trying to return Sam's soul to him. It hid the fact that something was not right with Sam for over a year which left his soul in the cage to be tortured and nearly brought Dean to the point where he was ready to murder his own brother. So where in this does Dean owe him an apology for?

And even in the end, Castiel claimed no ownership of its actions, and no real understanding of just what it did. It didn't go to Dean out of any sense that it did something wrong. It was only because Castiel was losing control over the souls it had swallowed and was going to burst like a balloon. It listed its worst offense as "overreaching". Not that killing the other angels or the mortals that offended it was wrong in any way. Not that hurting Sam in the worst way possible was wrong. It overreached. That proved more than anything else just how far Castiel has to go before forgiving it can even be a reasonable option. When you contrast its behavior to Sam taking full ownership of his actions, even when most rational individuals would agree that his culpability is limited, it's hard to justify why Castiel would deserve forgiveness at all.

As for Sam stabbing it in the back, Castiel had already proved itself to be a deadly threat. It had helped torture and murder Ellie. It had broken the wall in Sam's mind knowing full well that it would cost Sam his sanity and very possibly his life. It was going to break open Purgatory. Sam would have been a fool not to have taken the opportunity while Castiel was focused on Dean. At that moment, Castiel was far more a threat than Crowley or any other being in the universe. Sam was more than right to take the shot and owes Castiel nothing as a result.

You can love a character and still acknowledge where that character goes wrong. I've deeply loved many a villain in my career as a fan (Krycek from X-Files, Darth Vader, the Malfoys from Harry Potter) but I've never felt the need to whitewash their actions or try to show them as poor innocent beings misguided and abused by those around them. Castiel crossed the line long before it broke Sam's wall but for me, that was the final and most unforgivable act. That was the ultimate betrayal of any element of trust and friendship that it could claim with the Winchesters.

As far as forgiveness goes... Sam earned Dean's forgiveness and Dean did not make it easy on him. It took months of Sam not only taking full ownership of what he'd done (and not taking the excuse that he was manipulated by others) and trying time and time again to earn Dean's trust before Dean finally forgave him. After seeing months of Sam literally crawling on broken glass to regain what he had inadvertently broken, the thought that Castiel is due forgiveness just because Dean eventually forgave Sam leaves an awful taste in my mouth. Let Castiel spend a full season struggling to pay back Sam and Dean for the harm it did to them and the world before we start bandying around whether it is deserving of forgiveness.

I agree that some of the rationalizations for Castiel's actions in season 6 are just that. Rationalizations. You can look at Sam's actions in season 4 and understand that he did make a lot of very significant and tragic errors and also understand that he was facing huge levels of manipulation on all sides that pushed him into making those choices. It doesn't excuse Sam's behavior but it explains why he did the things that he did. But too many of the posts I've seen here, on TWOP and in the CW Lounge do not assign to Castiel any level of responsibility for what it did. If anything, the apologists try to absolve it from ownership of its actions. It was always someone else's fault. It was Crowley's, for offering the deal. It was Deans, for not being there even when Castiel was pushing him away with both hands. It was Sam's fault for... well, for being Sam.

[MariaARIS3]

Mar 2, 2012 10:55:29 GMT -5 ravanne said:

I had to stop reading that article after the first paragraph because my dinner was about to make a reappearance but it amply showed the level of delusion I've seen in some ECGs (not all of them, but some). They want to cling to this illusion of Castiel being some kind of poor innocent dupe that was cruelly lead astray by Crowley, abandoned by Dean and assaulted by Sam without cause or provocation. None of this fits with what we were shown in the show and even in Castiel's own words. Still, the delusion continues and seems to have only deepened in Castiel's absence.

I think that part of this is rooted in the fact that its fans are unable to separate what Castiel actually is from the image that the shell it wears gives. Castiel was not some innocent, naive babe in the woods. This is a being that his lived for many, many thousands of years. It watched humans crawl from the primordial ooze. It watched hundreds if civilizations rise and fall. It was a warrior of Heaven. Perhaps it was ignorant of matters of sex or basic human interactions, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have an understanding of how demons operate, that making an agreement with the King of Hell is probably a monumentally bad idea and that turning on its friends, allies and brethren is never a good idea. But some got taken in by the fact that Castiel is wearing a mild, soft-eyed and gentle-looking man and forget just what that shell is holding within.

The idea that Dean owes Castiel anything, least of all an apology is to me ludicrous. Castiel has taken an enormous amount from Dean and left a wounded, broken man in its wake. It helped to break the bond of trust that Dean had with Sam by encouraging Dean to view Sam's actions in the worst possible light. It forced Dean to relive the horrors of what he endured in Hell by kidnapping him and forcing him to torture Alistair. It kidnapped Dean again to prevent him from stopping Sam from going after Lilith alone. It lied to Dean repeatedly about Heaven's motives regarding Lilith and not telling Dean that they wanted Sam to break the last seal. It hid from Dean the fact that his brother was alive and then argued with Dean against trying to return Sam's soul to him. It hid the fact that something was not right with Sam for over a year which left his soul in the cage to be tortured and nearly brought Dean to the point where he was ready to murder his own brother. So where in this does Dean owe him an apology for?

And even in the end, Castiel claimed no ownership of its actions, and no real understanding of just what it did. It didn't go to Dean out of any sense that it did something wrong. It was only because Castiel was losing control over the souls it had swallowed and was going to burst like a balloon. It listed its worst offense as "overreaching". Not that killing the other angels or the mortals that offended it was wrong in any way. Not that hurting Sam in the worst way possible was wrong. It overreached. That proved more than anything else just how far Castiel has to go before forgiving it can even be a reasonable option. When you contrast its behavior to Sam taking full ownership of his actions, even when most rational individuals would agree that his culpability is limited, it's hard to justify why Castiel would deserve forgiveness at all.

As for Sam stabbing it in the back, Castiel had already proved itself to be a deadly threat. It had helped torture and murder Ellie. It had broken the wall in Sam's mind knowing full well that it would cost Sam his sanity and very possibly his life. It was going to break open Purgatory. Sam would have been a fool not to have taken the opportunity while Castiel was focused on Dean. At that moment, Castiel was far more a threat than Crowley or any other being in the universe. Sam was more than right to take the shot and owes Castiel nothing as a result.

You can love a character and still acknowledge where that character goes wrong. I've deeply loved many a villain in my career as a fan (Krycek from X-Files, Darth Vader, the Malfoys from Harry Potter) but I've never felt the need to whitewash their actions or try to show them as poor innocent beings misguided and abused by those around them. Castiel crossed the line long before it broke Sam's wall but for me, that was the final and most unforgivable act. That was the ultimate betrayal of any element of trust and friendship that it could claim with the Winchesters.

As far as forgiveness goes... Sam earned Dean's forgiveness and Dean did not make it easy on him. It took months of Sam not only taking full ownership of what he'd done (and not taking the excuse that he was manipulated by others) and trying time and time again to earn Dean's trust before Dean finally forgave him. After seeing months of Sam literally crawling on broken glass to regain what he had inadvertently broken, the thought that Castiel is due forgiveness just because Dean eventually forgave Sam leaves an awful taste in my mouth. Let Castiel spend a full season struggling to pay back Sam and Dean for the harm it did to them and the world before we start bandying around whether it is deserving of forgiveness.

I agree that some of the rationalizations for Castiel's actions in season 6 are just that. Rationalizations. You can look at Sam's actions in season 4 and understand that he did make a lot of very significant and tragic errors and also understand that he was facing huge levels of manipulation on all sides that pushed him into making those choices. It doesn't excuse Sam's behavior but it explains why he did the things that he did. But too many of the posts I've seen here, on TWOP and in the CW Lounge do not assign to Castiel any level of responsibility for what it did. If anything, the apologists try to absolve it from ownership of its actions. It was always someone else's fault. It was Crowley's, for offering the deal. It was Deans, for not being there even when Castiel was pushing him away with both hands. It was Sam's fault for... well, for being Sam.

Once again Ravanne, EXCELLENT post!
What ticks me off with some Cas fans (mostly TWOPers, but we've had quite a few back on the Lounge too) is the fact that the best excuse the can find about Castiel's actions is to compare him with Sam. "Sam did the same things -even worse according to TWOPers- and Dean forgave him"
But while they use that excuse, they demand from Dean an instant forgiveness or -even crazier- they demand from Dean to ask forgiveness... While they use that excuse, they still hate Sam for the things he did back in season 4, but they feel sorry for Castiel for "being forced" to do the things he did...
For people who claim that Sam and Castiel's cases are similar, I can't understand why they hate one character so much, but see the other one as the tragic hero...

For me though, there is nothing in common between Sam and Castiel. Maybe desperation. Only this. But Castiel was in absolutely no way manipulated as some of his fans claim.

Sam was manipulated -no matter how much you hate the character you just can't deny that- by Ruby and Dean at the same time was manipulated by angels AND Cas. The angels and Ruby did everything they could to tear the brothers apart. The angels poisoned Dean's mind ot the point of seeing his brother as a monster.
But even after their big fight in WTLB, Sam was still willing to go back to Dean in the last minute. The angels knew the Dean's rejection would be the right button to push, so that Sam would make the wrong choice (but right for him until the very end, since both he and Dean were led to believe that by killing Lilith they could prevent the Apocalypse). There is no doubt that if Sam had heard the real voice message from Dean, he'd go back to him and there is no doubt that if Sam knew that by killing Lilith he would set Lucifer free, he would never do it.
And even after that, Sam (and Dean) took responsibility for their actions. They admitted they messed up and Sam ended up making the biggest sacrifice to redeem himself. Castiel never did that, but he kept blaming the boys and especially Sam for causing all this mess...

And we come to season 6. Castiel was not manipulated by Crowley. He knew exactly how dangerous it would be to open Purgatory. And he chose to take the risk. He even made a deal with Crowley about the souls. He knew what he was doing from the very beginning. And until the very end he showed no signs of remorse. So NO, his case has nothing in common with Sam.

[yimhappy]

Mar 1, 2012 16:29:32 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

Mar 1, 2012 15:47:34 GMT -5 yimhappy said:

It looked like Cas was expecting Sam to tell Dean, then when Sam didn't, Cas looked confused. Cas at least knows that his people skills are rusty. Do you think he wants to get in-between the brotherly bond, if Sam/Dean don't want to talk about something??

If telling Dean was some delicate human social matter, why not leave it to competent humans like Sam/Bobby?? After all, Cas was up to his eyeballs in chaotic Heaven, then Civil War. Why shouldn't Cas trust Sam/Bobby to handle it??

I'm sorry but I can't understand this... If Cas brought Sam back for Dean and not for his own plans, he should have told Dean right after he brought him back, regardless of what Sam would do. The fact that he knew that Sam was working for Crowley (and for him) without Sam acknowledging that himself and the fact that he let the boys believe that it was Crowley the one who brought Sam back to make them work for Crowley make me believe that his intentions were bad. He brought Sam back to use him for his own plan. I don't know if he left his soul down there on purpose or not, but in the end it suited him very well.

Ack, too many huge long posts to deal with in 20 minutes, and we're not even on the same page.
Let me try a different tack to get to the root of some of these arguments.


Why did Castiel pull Sam from Hell (unsuccessfully)?? What was Castiel's intention in this??
Canon tells us...
Cas did it BEFORE Cas got in trouble with Raphael in Heaven.
Cas did it BEFORE he thought of getting the Purgatory souls.
In TMWWBK, Cas said Lucifer/Michael were beat, "but at a terrible cost". Cas said he felt great mission in trying to retrieve Sam, but later he saw that as arrogance.

Altogether, I'm having a hard time seeing how Cas trying to save Sam from was self-serving.
In TMWWBK, Cas said he had a few weeks in Heaven before his showdown with Raphael. So for a few weeks at least, Cas had no self-serving purpose for Sam.

Also, I don't get "Cas hid Sam from Dean". Cas dropped Sam on Dean's doorstep. Cas did nothing to HIDE Sam. Cas just didn't tell Dean that Sam was alive. What Cas hid was his part in raising Sam. Let's keep Cas' "sins" straight.

Do you realize Cas missed a great opportunity to manipulate Dean?? Could you imagine Dean's reaction if Cas had knocked on Dean's door himself, and told Dean that he just pulled Sam from Hell?? Cas could have scored big points there. So why didn't he??

In my own head canon, I picture these thoughts in Cas's head as post-Hell-Sam walks away from Dean's door.
Cripes, let me catch my breath. My feathery ass got roasted in Hell going in without back up. What was I thinking? Oh good, Sam is walking, his mind is working. I won't bust in on Dean's dinner with this woman. I'll let Sam handle it in human fashion.

WTF?? Sam is walking away from Dean's door. Oh Jesus Christ! Are those 2 fighting again?? Jesus, the first time I tried to help Dean with Sam Raphael smited me into a grease spot. Then, I let Dean talk me into interferring with Lucifer/Michael's fight. Again, I got smited into particles.

I don't want to deal with this shit. Heaven is in chaos. I'm losing critical time to influence Heaven's new direction here while I'm trying to deal with these 2 Bozos. Fuck it. Let Sam/Dean work it out. They always do. If something is wrong, Dean will probably call me anyway. I've got a shot at understanding angels I understand at least. Not even other humans understand Sam/Dean.

Then, all Heaven goes kaka, and Cas has his hands full.

[yimhappy]

Mar 1, 2012 16:56:41 GMT -5 ravanne said:

I don't think that Dean "convinced" Castiel of anything regarding Sam's soul. He retrieved it without any help or input from Castiel, and did so at enormous risk to himself. Castiel showed up after the fact and acted delighted that Sam was apparently whole, but it wasn't due to its influence at all. Dean saved Sam in spite of Castiel, not with it. And as for its apparent "agreement" to save Sam's soul? Some nice play acting. It did everything to deter Dean, warning him repeatedly about the state Sam's soul was in but offering nothing to actually get Sam out or even offer a comfort of telling Dean that even if Sam lost his mortal life, his soul would be safe.

o how could Castiel, with any kind of conscience, leave the innocent soul of a friend in Hell? Especially knowing what was being done to Sam. Even if it cost Sam's mortal life, rescuing the soul would have been the very thing that an angel would have encourage. Instead, Castiel discouraged Dean at every turn.

No one said Cas saved Sam's soul.
I'm saying that Cas never did anything to obstruct Dean.
Cas warned Dean, and then capitulated when Dean said "no, Sam needs his soul". I don't see how it was bad to tell Dean the risks of what he was doing. The truth might have "discouraged Dean", but that's life. I don't see how NOT sugar coating it was some huge sin.

Also, assuming that Souless!Sam was such a big asset to Cas/Crowley...
Why did Cas give up control of Souless!Sam in Caged Heat??
Cas/Crowley must have had some agreement to go along Caged Heat farce. The purpose of this farce seems to be just getting the Winchesters out of Cas/Crowley's way.

If Cas is all self-serving, why didn't Cas/Crowley have a monster/demon kill Dean?? Without Dean, Souless!Sam is more controllable thru Sampa. Cas could have arranged something much more self-serving in Caged Heat.

Now, crap, I'm late for work.

[yimhappy]

Mar 1, 2012 13:43:43 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

I won't go back in season 4 (I still have some issues form back then, but I'll leave them aside for the moment) and I will just focus on what Cas did in season 6.

Thank god. S6 is worth it just so the skeptic can drone on about something new. S4's sins were past old (Cas freed Sam from Bobby's safe room in WTLB).

[ravanne]

Mar 2, 2012 13:15:21 GMT -5 yimhappy said:

Mar 1, 2012 16:29:32 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

Why did Castiel pull Sam from Hell (unsuccessfully)?? What was Castiel's intention in this??
Canon tells us...
Cas did it BEFORE Cas got in trouble with Raphael in Heaven.
Cas did it BEFORE he thought of getting the Purgatory souls.
In TMWWBK, Cas said Lucifer/Michael were beat, "but at a terrible cost". Cas said he felt great mission in trying to retrieve Sam, but later he saw that as arrogance.

Altogether, I'm having a hard time seeing how Cas trying to save Sam from was self-serving.
In TMWWBK, Cas said he had a few weeks in Heaven before his showdown with Raphael. So for a few weeks at least, Cas had no self-serving purpose for Sam.

Also, I don't get "Cas hid Sam from Dean". Cas dropped Sam on Dean's doorstep. Cas did nothing to HIDE Sam. Cas just didn't tell Dean that Sam was alive. What Cas hid was his part in raising Sam. Let's keep Cas' "sins" straight.

Do you realize Cas missed a great opportunity to manipulate Dean?? Could you imagine Dean's reaction if Cas had knocked on Dean's door himself, and told Dean that he just pulled Sam from Hell?? Cas could have scored big points there. So why didn't he??

In my own head canon, I picture these thoughts in Cas's head as post-Hell-Sam walks away from Dean's door.
Cripes, let me catch my breath. My feathery ass got roasted in Hell going in without back up. What was I thinking? Oh good, Sam is walking, his mind is working. I won't bust in on Dean's dinner with this woman. I'll let Sam handle it in human fashion.

WTF?? Sam is walking away from Dean's door. Oh Jesus Christ! Are those 2 fighting again?? Jesus, the first time I tried to help Dean with Sam Raphael smited me into a grease spot. Then, I let Dean talk me into interferring with Lucifer/Michael's fight. Again, I got smited into particles.

I don't want to deal with this shit. Heaven is in chaos. I'm losing critical time to influence Heaven's new direction here while I'm trying to deal with these 2 Bozos. Fuck it. Let Sam/Dean work it out. They always do. If something is wrong, Dean will probably call me anyway. I've got a shot at understanding angels I understand at least. Not even other humans understand Sam/Dean.

Then, all Heaven goes kaka, and Cas has his hands full.

I'm sorry, but this falls in line with the rationalization and excuses for Castiel's actions. I really wish that some of Castiel's fans would just accept that while they love it, it fucked up royally at every level and just take ownership of what it did. Nothing you've stated justifies or excuses what Castiel did. If Castiel had just left Sam alone and didn't see him again until we saw them meet in season 6, and if he'd never returned to spy on Dean, that would be one thing.

But Castiel had opportunity to reveal that Sam was alive to Dean and didn't. That is a huge lie by omission. It saw that Dean was suffering without his brother and knew that something wasn't right with Sam when Sam walked away from Lisa's house. It did nothing to try to help the two mortals that it claimed as friends (and who its supporters insist was like a brother to Dean). That it didn't do anything to even clue Dean into the fact that his brother (or at least his brother's body) was no longer in the cage is beyond troubling.

It would have been bad enough if Castiel let it at that, but we know that Castiel and Crowley were using Sam as their hunting dog. Castiel took Dean's beloved little brother and used him to capture monsters for Crowley to torture when Sam was not capable of reasoning that he was being asked to do something wrong. This is a human that Castiel had previously said that it'd be willing to die to protect, and now he was nothing more than a tool to be used. It did nothing to help Sam, or to try to figure out why Sam was not acting the way he should, but it certainly found that this amoral hunter was ideal to suit its plans.

As far as Castiel giving up a way to manipulate Dean, it certainly did manipulate Dean. It allowed Crowley to use Sam's soul as hostage to force Dean to help them procure monsters for their use. It protected Crowley from the Winchesters when they tried to force him to release Sam's soul (not knowing at that point that it was still in Lucifer's cage and out of Crowley's control). Castiel not only did nothing to help the Winchesters, but caused an enormous delay in getting Sam's soul released and could have saved Sam many decades of being brutalized before being freed.

I don't think we can ignore that fact. It might seem to us that Sam's soul was trapped for only a year and a half, but for Sam, this was more than a century of being tortured, raped, and brutalized by Lucifer. A word from Castiel might have helped to spare Sam some of that, but Castiel first did nothing, then did everything it could to discourage Dean from trying to save Sam.

As far as Castiel's hands being full, it found time to gather allies, hang out with Sam and Dean and help them on the occasional hunt (which kept its cover of being a concerned friend) and had plenty of opportunities to come clean and get the Winchesters to actually help it instead of using them as tools. It chose not to. It disregarded the fact that these two mortals were able to defeat not only Lucifer, but Michael and Zachariah as well. I hardly imaging that Raphael would have been as difficult to handle as all three of them. But then again, Castiel viewed Sam and Dean as nothing more than "ants".

I cannot ignore the fact that Castiel did not give in at the end because it realized that it did anything wrong. It wouldn't have stopped because it was now the biggest dog on the block and could do what it wanted. It stopped because it realized that it couldn't contain the power it had stolen. Again, killing Balthazar, Rachel, all of the other angels and untold numbers of humans was not what it did wrong in its eyes. It overreached. It has accepted no responsibility for the enormous harm it did, most especially to the two mortals that it claimed as friends.

[ravanne]

Mar 2, 2012 13:47:56 GMT -5 yimhappy said:

Also, assuming that Souless!Sam was such a big asset to Cas/Crowley...
Why did Cas give up control of Souless!Sam in Caged Heat??
Cas/Crowley must have had some agreement to go along Caged Heat farce. The purpose of this farce seems to be just getting the Winchesters out of Cas/Crowley's way.

If Cas is all self-serving, why didn't Cas/Crowley have a monster/demon kill Dean?? Without Dean, Souless!Sam is more controllable thru Sampa. Cas could have arranged something much more self-serving in Caged Heat.

What Crowley gave up in Caged Heat was the pretense that he had any control over actually freeing Sam's soul (which was the lever that he used to force Sam and Dean to work for him) and having the Winchesters at his beck and call. That was it. He sacrificed having two very useful tools and protected his life and the secret of his alliance with Castiel. Castiel and Crowley cut their losses to protect the ultimate goal they had their eyes on. And Castiel "proved" that it was on the Winchester's side (which again helped further their plans).

Crowley quite possibly intended to have Dean killed, otherwise why feed him to a bunch of ghouls. Dean survived only because Soulless Sammy figured out that nifty trick of using his own blood to paint a devil's trap so that he could escape his cell. But again, the Winchesters were useful alive. They were hunting the MOA, who was hunting Crowley because of him butchering her children. Even though Sam and Dean were no longer on Crowley's leash, they were still of great use to him and Castiel. And Castiel had "proven" its loyalty so it was still in a possition to manipulate them.

[MariaARIS3]

Mar 2, 2012 13:15:21 GMT -5 yimhappy said:

Why did Castiel pull Sam from Hell (unsuccessfully)?? What was Castiel's intention in this??
Canon tells us...
Cas did it BEFORE Cas got in trouble with Raphael in Heaven.
Cas did it BEFORE he thought of getting the Purgatory souls.
In TMWWBK, Cas said Lucifer/Michael were beat, "but at a terrible cost". Cas said he felt great mission in trying to retrieve Sam, but later he saw that as arrogance.

Altogether, I'm having a hard time seeing how Cas trying to save Sam from was self-serving.
In TMWWBK, Cas said he had a few weeks in Heaven before his showdown with Raphael. So for a few weeks at least, Cas had no self-serving purpose for Sam.

Also, I don't get "Cas hid Sam from Dean". Cas dropped Sam on Dean's doorstep. Cas did nothing to HIDE Sam. Cas just didn't tell Dean that Sam was alive. What Cas hid was his part in raising Sam. Let's keep Cas' "sins" straight.

Nobody said that Cas "hid" Sam from Dean. Not telling Dean that he brought him back is different from hiding him...

Do you realize Cas missed a great opportunity to manipulate Dean?? Could you imagine Dean's reaction if Cas had knocked on Dean's door himself, and told Dean that he just pulled Sam from Hell?? Cas could have scored big points there. So why didn't he??

In my own head canon, I picture these thoughts in Cas's head as post-Hell-Sam walks away from Dean's door.
Cripes, let me catch my breath. My feathery ass got roasted in Hell going in without back up. What was I thinking? Oh good, Sam is walking, his mind is working. I won't bust in on Dean's dinner with this woman. I'll let Sam handle it in human fashion.

WTF?? Sam is walking away from Dean's door. Oh Jesus Christ! Are those 2 fighting again?? Jesus, the first time I tried to help Dean with Sam Raphael smited me into a grease spot. Then, I let Dean talk me into interferring with Lucifer/Michael's fight. Again, I got smited into particles.

I don't want to deal with this shit. Heaven is in chaos. I'm losing critical time to influence Heaven's new direction here while I'm trying to deal with these 2 Bozos. Fuck it. Let Sam/Dean work it out. They always do. If something is wrong, Dean will probably call me anyway. I've got a shot at understanding angels I understand at least. Not even other humans understand Sam/Dean.

Then, all Heaven goes kaka, and Cas has his hands full.

Missed a chance to manipulate Dean??? How???
And really, this is the best answer you could give about why he didn't tell Dean??? I was expecting a more serious approach, but I guess there is no serious answer that could justify Castiel's decision not to tell Dean...

[MariaARIS3]

Mar 2, 2012 13:47:56 GMT -5 yimhappy said:

If Cas is all self-serving, why didn't Cas/Crowley have a monster/demon kill Dean?? Without Dean, Souless!Sam is more controllable thru Sampa. Cas could have arranged something much more self-serving in Caged Heat.

He wasn't anymore. From the moment he decided to contact Dean (because his instinct told him that somehow it would be better with Dean around) and after finding out that Samuel was working for Crowley, the only one who could "control" soulless Sam was Dean...

[yimhappy]

Mar 2, 2012 15:30:43 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

Mar 2, 2012 13:47:56 GMT -5 yimhappy said:

If Cas is all self-serving, why didn't Cas/Crowley have a monster/demon kill Dean?? Without Dean, Souless!Sam is more controllable thru Sampa. Cas could have arranged something much more self-serving in Caged Heat.

He wasn't anymore. From the moment he decided to contact Dean (because his instinct told him that somehow it would be better with Dean around) and after finding out that Samuel was working for Crowley, the only one who could "control" soulless Sam was Dean...

Hmm, it's hard to predict Souless!Sam. Anyway, Crowley found ways to hunt without Sam/Dean.

Later in S6, why not kill Sam/Dean like Crowley begged Cas to??
Why kill Crowley's hunter demons & all sorts of intrigues just to keep Winchester's alive, yet not interferring??

[yimhappy]

Mar 2, 2012 15:22:49 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

Missed a chance to manipulate Dean??? How???

And really, this is the best answer you could give about why he didn't tell Dean??? I was expecting a more serious approach, but I guess there is no serious answer that could justify Castiel's decision not to tell Dean...

Even if Cas botched the job, Dean would have been grateful.
How can you not see that "grateful Dean" would be helpful??

If you're saying Cas had a bad motive for not telling Dean that Sam was back, then please explain that motive to me.
Tell me WHY Cas didn't tell Dean, besides "the plot needed it".
Otherwise, I can't be bothered to "justify" or otherwise comment on something that I don't understand yet.


Also, this is a fan board, not mom's funeral. Is this subject so serious that we can't have fun?? It's going to be hard to even come here if folks act like super serious pills. Maybe we should put a sign up?

[Removed hot linked & protected image]

[yimhappy]

Mar 2, 2012 14:07:06 GMT -5 ravanne said:

I'm sorry, but this falls in line with the rationalization and excuses for Castiel's actions. I really wish that some of Castiel's fans would just accept that while they love it, it fucked up royally at every level and just take ownership of what it did. Nothing you've stated justifies or excuses what Castiel did. If Castiel had just left Sam alone and didn't see him again until we saw them meet in season 6, and if he'd never returned to spy on Dean, that would be one thing.

Gah, there are other things I want to address, like Caged Heat. But, I really don't have time today. Honestly, I completely stay away from this site, or i spend too much time in this thread. Sheesh, the money I could be making with the effort I put into this.



I want to be Absolutely clear on something.
I don't have problems "owning" what Cas did.

What I have a problem with is that the skeptics seem to be demand something that they don't reciprocate. You demand that I acknowledge Cas' fuck ups & bad actions.

But that seems one sided when YOU don't acknowledge the good things Cas did. See, SPN doesn't like black/white stories. SPN grays things up. This is partly why SPN so resonant with so many people. In real life, real people are both awful & awesome.

Please acknowledge.
(1) Cas did try to save Sam from Lucifer's cage.
(2) Cas did not kill the Winchesters, or allow them to be killed, despite it costing him. Crowley begged to kill them. Cas gave up 50000 souls to protect them from Fate.
(3) Cas got his ass smote by Lucifer to give Dean 5 minutes alone with Samifer.

If you do this, you might be surprised at what I acknowledge. I might even say what I think about "who was more wrong? Cas vs Sam"



BTW, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt when you say, "own what Castiel did". Some fans get fucking weird about fictional characters. They defend those fictional characters like they're defending their own life.

I'll own what I do. Castiel can own what he does, or doesn't do. That's called boundaries. I just didn't want any confusion.

[ravanne]

Mar 2, 2012 17:46:01 GMT -5 yimhappy said:

If you're saying Cas had a bad motive for not telling Dean that Sam was back, then please explain that motive to me.
Tell me WHY Cas didn't tell Dean, besides "the plot needed it".
Otherwise, I can't be bothered to "justify" or otherwise comment on something that I don't understand yet.

Very simple answer. Sam without his soul was useful to Castiel and Crowley. A very skilled hunter with absolutely no moral compass and would contentedly go after whatever monster they pointed him at? Sam was personally responsible for most of the monsters that Crowley was cutting up were delivered by Sam.

It's rather disingenuous to chalk up anything bad that Castiel did to just being done for the sake of the plot. Because that allows you to ignore the things you don't like because Castiel just wouldn't do that unless the bad writers made it do something so awful. The writers are telling the story and Castiel is a character. Like Sam and Dean, it will do what the writers want. But trying to separate the writing from the character is a cop out. You cannot divorce the character from the plot just because you don't like what it did or think that it was out of character.

And was Castiel's behavior in season 6 such a real departure from its past behavior? I'd argue otherwise. Despite the claims by some of Castiel being a naive being, it has proven itself a shrewd and skilled manipulator. It knew just how to twist Dean around to get what it wanted. It used Sam as leverage many times to keep Dean in line. It used fear for Sam's life to coerce an oath of loyalty. Give that, how out of line is it to imagine that Castiel would be willing to throw both Sam and Dean to the wolves to get what it wanted. It had done so before.

[yimhappy]

Mar 2, 2012 20:12:31 GMT -5 ravanne said:

Mar 2, 2012 17:46:01 GMT -5 yimhappy said:

If you're saying Cas had a bad motive for not telling Dean that Sam was back, then please explain that motive to me.
Tell me WHY Cas didn't tell Dean, besides "the plot needed it".
Otherwise, I can't be bothered to "justify" or otherwise comment on something that I don't understand yet.

Very simple answer. Sam without his soul was useful to Castiel and Crowley. A very skilled hunter with absolutely no moral compass and would contentedly go after whatever monster they pointed him at? Sam was personally responsible for most of the monsters that Crowley was cutting up were delivered by Sam.

OK, to clarify, I meant during those few weeks Cas was in Heaven, before Cas/Crowley made a deal. The only reason I can think of is "let Sam/Dean sort it out". I'm actually interested in your take on that.

I'll be back later this weekend.

Hey, for the record, my CFC2 buddies are against me debating here. HBD says "it only gives the skeptics orgasms". Now, at least I'm not alone with unpleasant mental imagery.

Mar 2, 2012 20:12:31 GMT -5 ravanne said:

It's rather disingenuous to chalk up anything bad that Castiel did to just being done for the sake of the plot. Because that allows you to ignore the things you don't like because Castiel just wouldn't do that unless the bad writers made it do something so awful. The writers are telling the story and Castiel is a character. Like Sam and Dean, it will do what the writers want. But trying to separate the writing from the character is a cop out. You cannot divorce the character from the plot just because you don't like what it did or think that it was out of character.


And was Castiel's behavior in season 6 such a real departure from its past behavior? I'd argue otherwise. Despite the claims by some of Castiel being a naive being, it has proven itself a shrewd and skilled manipulator. It knew just how to twist Dean around to get what it wanted. It used Sam as leverage many times to keep Dean in line. It used fear for Sam's life to coerce an oath of loyalty. Give that, how out of line is it to imagine that Castiel would be willing to throw both Sam and Dean to the wolves to get what it wanted. It had done so before.

Hey, I'm cool with not putting Castiel's bad actions down to bad writing. But, it's legit to say S6 confused the hell out of me. I'll be happy to acknowledge Cas' bad, when you acknowledge his good.

I'm not asking that we agree on Cas' intentions, just on the facts of what happened.
(1) Cas did try to save Sam from Lucifer's cage.
(2) Cas did not kill the Winchesters, or allow them to be killed, despite it costing him. Crowley begged to kill them. Cas gave up 50000 souls to protect them from Fate.
(3) Cas got his ass smote by Lucifer to give Dean 5 minutes alone with Samifer.


Look, I'll cut to the chase, and give you my current position w/o a lot of back & forth. Yes, Cas could be shrewd & not naive. Remember how Cas got around "don't interfer with prophet's prediction" in MATEOTB 4.18?

I think that we can agree that Cas did bad things, although we can wrangle about how bad various details were. I think that "unforgivable" is the real difference.

About Dean, fuck it, I'll deal with that later. I need dinner now.

[DeanandSam]

lol man people have some personal issues with Cas. Such good issues too where you see all the fucked up things he has done. My issue with Cas is I just don't care for the character. He doesn't spring up any emotions from me. I see him on my screen and I start becoming preoccupied with other stuff. He bores me as a character. It has nothing to do with his association with Dean and the "Profound bound" I actually would respect this bond and friendship if I actually cared for the character, but I don't.

[MariaARIS3]

Mar 2, 2012 17:46:01 GMT -5 yimhappy said:

Even if Cas botched the job, Dean would have been grateful.
How can you not see that "grateful Dean" would be helpful??

If you're saying Cas had a bad motive for not telling Dean that Sam was back, then please explain that motive to me.
Tell me WHY Cas didn't tell Dean, besides "the plot needed it".

I'm saying he had a bad motive because he used soulless Sam to hunt Alphas for him. Can you tell me what is it that makes you think he didn't have a bad motive?

Also, this is a fan board, not mom's funeral. Is this subject so serious that we can't have fun?? It's going to be hard to even come here if folks act like super serious pills. Maybe we should put a sign up?

Please... I'm not saying you can't have fun... But when, instead of answering a question, you try to make fun of the whole thing, you just prove to me that you have no valid points to throw onto the table!

[yimhappy]

Ugh. Long day today, and I have to go in to work tomorrow. This week, I've only read PMs. I couldn't afford to waste on hour on forums. Family flies in this weekend, and then out of town work trip. Maybe it'll get better after that, but I still have taxes to do.
Plus, the last thing I wanted to do after a long work day was argue.
I'll get to some of this eventually, if anyone is left here.

[yimhappy]

Mar 3, 2012 13:32:51 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

Mar 2, 2012 17:46:01 GMT -5 yimhappy said:

Even if Cas botched the job, Dean would have been grateful.
How can you not see that "grateful Dean" would be helpful??

If you're saying Cas had a bad motive for not telling Dean that Sam was back, then please explain that motive to me.
Tell me WHY Cas didn't tell Dean, besides "the plot needed it".

I'm saying he had a bad motive because he used soulless Sam to hunt Alphas for him. Can you tell me what is it that makes you think he didn't have a bad motive?

I think that Cas rose Sam for a good motive. Cas did NOT need Sam the hunter when Cas went to hell to retrieve Sam. That was before the Cas/Crowley deal, before the Raphael fight.

Cas said Sam was a friend in the S5 Anna episode. Dean was in obvious pain at the end of Swan Song. Face value would say that Cas tried to save Sam because it was right, & Cas realized some of what Dean was going thru. Of course, it was arrogant for Cas to think he could pull someone out of an ArchAngel-proof cage. Then again, Cas just watched Dean do something very arrogant, yet win. But actually, it defies all good sense that Cas would succeed at all, & pull out SoulessSam at all.

Yes, after the Cas/Crowley deal, Cas thought he could use SoulessSam's hunting abilities. But it's myopic to focus only on the bad.

Mar 3, 2012 13:32:51 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

Please... I'm not saying you can't have fun... But when, instead of answering a question, you try to make fun of the whole thing, you just prove to me that you have no valid points to throw onto the table!

I threw a valid point on the table. If Sam/Bobby wouldn't tell Dean, why is it Cas the only bad guy for trusting the humans to do tell Dean that Sam was back?? Somehow, valid points will never be enough. But that's OK. I don't see why fans can't disagree respectfully.

[yimhappy]

Mar 1, 2012 13:43:43 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

So, what did Cas do in season 6?
a) he brought back Sam soulless
b)he worked with Crowley
c)he has been lying to the boys for half a year (I'm not counting the year he didn't even contact the boys)
d) he took down Sam's wall

The only thing I can't blame him for is (b) working for Crowley, since the boys have done it too. For all the others he has no excuses and I will explain why later. For now, I would really like to say what Cas fans have to say to defend him.

For now, I'll just deal w/ a) & d).

a) Should Cas had just flown back up to Heaven, and not even tried to rescue Sam from Hell?? Give Cas credit for trying. Then you can roast him for not telling Dean, "I wonder if Sam came back right".


d) Sam's wall.
You know, I could totally agree that this would be unforgivable if Cas took down Sam's wall while masturbating to kiddie porn. But, the context is in Cas' favor.

SPN shows us 5+ separate incidents when Cas could have killed the Winchesters, but didn't, despite knowing that the Winchester might kill him.
(1) Let it Bleed. Dean/Cas are enemies, and Cas knows Dean will try to stop him. Dean's torturing a demon, which escapes. All Cas has to do is let the demon kill Dean. Instead, Cas acts to save Dean.
(2) Dr. Visiak's death. Cas knows that D/S/B are his enemy, & they won't stand aside. Cas has good reason to kill them, knowing that their interference would leave Cas worse than dead if Raphael takes over. Instead of killing, Cas temporarily incapacitates.
(3) Cas becomes Godstiel. Cas doesn't kill Dean/Sam/Bobby, despite knowing that they would have stopped him. Cas doesn't hurt anybody DESPITE getting stabbed in the back.
(4) Dean/Sam/Bobby call Death JUST to kill Cas. Dean even yells out "Just kill him(Cas)" to Death. Cas breaks Death's chain. Is there any reason to think that Death would have stopped Cas from killing D/S/B??? Cas could have tried to kill D/S/B for trying to kill him. Instead, once again, Cas leaves Winchester family unharmed after they just tried to kill him.
(5) I'm not going to even mention all the times Cas chooses to save the Winchesters over his own self interest in MHWGO & TMWWBK.

So yes, although I was sick to see Cas break Sam's wall, it doesn't look so bad when combined with Cas not retaliating when the Winchesters were trying to kill Cas. Plus, Cas didn't look like he broke Sam's wall in anger. It looked like Cas was using minimum deadly force to stop conflict, like when a marshal artist tries to end the fight as quickly & least harmful as possible.

[yimhappy]

Mar 2, 2012 14:07:06 GMT -5 ravanne said:

I'm sorry, but this falls in line with the rationalization and excuses for Castiel's actions. I really wish that some of Castiel's fans would just accept that while they love it, it fucked up royally at every level and just take ownership of what it did. Nothing you've stated justifies or excuses what Castiel did. If Castiel had just left Sam alone and didn't see him again until we saw them meet in season 6, and if he'd never returned to spy on Dean, that would be one thing.

You make interesting points, even good.
But, why should Cas fans "own" what Cas did to your standards, when you don't acknowledge the good Cas did?? Bowing down to your points seems dangerous. Plus, many of us have acknowledged Cas screwed up.

But, it's no wonder we disagree about "unforgivable" when you're blind to the good Cas did.

[ravanne]

Mar 10, 2012 0:54:28 GMT -5 yimhappy said:

But, it's no wonder we disagree about "unforgivable" when you're blind to the good Cas did.

I'm not blind to the few genuinely good things that Castiel has done. I just don't see those acts balancing out all the harm that it's done. Standing by the Winchesters during season 5 doesn't erase the fact that Castiel had a direct and primary role in manipulating both Sam and Dean into freeing Lucifer (and a role that has never been completely acknowledged). And I don't see that Castiel being willing to sacrifice itself as any greater a sacrifice than the ones made by Dean, Bobby, and most especially Sam.

Sam sacrificed his life and soul to save the world from the damage that he has inadvertantly caused. He spent over a century (hell time) being tortured and raped by Lucifer before Dean managed to save his soul. Sam has to live what with he has endured every single day since and likely for the rest of his life. I can't equate Castiel getting exploded and then brought back as if nothing ever happened as an equal sacrifice with what Sam has survived.

And all too often, Castiel balanced out the good things it did with real and deliberate harm. It saved Dean from Hell, not out of the goodness of its heart, but because Dean was of use to Heaven and had a role to fill. Castiel pulled Sam's body out of the cage (and it's still a debateable point on if Sam's soul was left behind deliberately or when Castiel realized that Sam's soul was still trapped), but then used Sam to further its and Crowley's plans. I just don't see Castiel being in any way deserving of the kind of consideration and devotion that the character keeps seeming to get. Not when every other character has to own up to every mistake they've ever made.

[MariaARIS3]

Mar 10, 2012 0:16:28 GMT -5 yimhappy said:

I think that Cas rose Sam for a good motive. Cas did NOT need Sam the hunter when Cas went to hell to retrieve Sam. That was before the Cas/Crowley deal, before the Raphael fight.

Cas said Sam was a friend in the S5 Anna episode. Dean was in obvious pain at the end of Swan Song. Face value would say that Cas tried to save Sam because it was right, & Cas realized some of what Dean was going thru. Of course, it was arrogant for Cas to think he could pull someone out of an ArchAngel-proof cage. Then again, Cas just watched Dean do something very arrogant, yet win. But actually, it defies all good sense that Cas would succeed at all, & pull out SoulessSam at all.

Yes, after the Cas/Crowley deal, Cas thought he could use SoulessSam's hunting abilities. But it's myopic to focus only on the bad.

Just because he said to Anna that Sam was his friend, doesn't mean it's also the truth. The writers never bothered enought to "show" this friendship, so that statement came out of the blue and surprised not only skeptics but Cas fans as well back then...
I'm not focusing on the bad things. I'm focusing on the last action, because that's what stays in the end. You know the example with the cow? You milk it and just when the bucket is full of milk, the cow gives a kick to the bucket and all the milk is gone...

I threw a valid point on the table. If Sam/Bobby wouldn't tell Dean, why is it Cas the only bad guy for trusting the humans to do tell Dean that Sam was back?? Somehow, valid points will never be enough. But that's OK. I don't see why fans can't disagree respectfully.

I don't think I've been disrespectful in this thread. You're being more disrespectful with comments like "this is a fun board, not a funeral..."
And no, saying that Sam and Bobby didn't tell Dean either is not a valid point...
This is my country's biggest problem... Politicians trying to throw their mistakes to other side... "why didn't you do this when you were in charge?" "why didn't you?" "why didn't YOU?" "why didn't YOU?" and this goes on and on and on like a broken record...

Sam was soulless and didn't care enough for Dean to tell him. For Bobby, I still can't figure it out, but our subject here is Cas. IF you want a debate thread for Bobby's actions, make one and we can discuss Bobby there!

[MariaARIS3]

Mar 10, 2012 0:48:17 GMT -5 yimhappy said:

For now, I'll just deal w/ a) & d).

a) Should Cas had just flown back up to Heaven, and not even tried to rescue Sam from Hell?? Give Cas credit for trying. Then you can roast him for not telling Dean, "I wonder if Sam came back right".

I have given him credit for trying. I never said "Cas not telling Dean was dead wrong" but I do question him for not telling. Because all his behavior makes me feel that even if his first intention was good, he eventually used Sam for his own agenda. And that's what stays in the end.

d) Sam's wall.
You know, I could totally agree that this would be unforgivable if Cas took down Sam's wall while masturbating to kiddie porn. But, the context is in Cas' favor.

SPN shows us 5+ separate incidents when Cas could have killed the Winchesters, but didn't, despite knowing that the Winchester might kill him.

knowing that the Winchesters might kill him??? Cas didn't think that the Winchesters were strong enough to kill him. He clearly told Dean that he was just a man and he couldn't stop him.

(1) Let it Bleed. Dean/Cas are enemies, and Cas knows Dean will try to stop him. Dean's torturing a demon, which escapes. All Cas has to do is let the demon kill Dean. Instead, Cas acts to save Dean.
(2) Dr. Visiak's death. Cas knows that D/S/B are his enemy, & they won't stand aside. Cas has good reason to kill them, knowing that their interference would leave Cas worse than dead if Raphael takes over. Instead of killing, Cas temporarily incapacitates.

SO, just because he didn't kill them, they should be thankful for what only destroying Sam's wall??? Is that an excuse??? It was Cas the one who said that Sam could die if he got his soul back or be permanently damaged. Yet he was the one who destroyed his only protection. It's like saying that if you have the chance to shoot someone to kill him, but you just shoot him to leave him handicapped it makes it OK... Does it???

(3) Cas becomes Godstiel. Cas doesn't kill Dean/Sam/Bobby, despite knowing that they would have stopped him. Cas doesn't hurt anybody DESPITE getting stabbed in the back.
(4) Dean/Sam/Bobby call Death JUST to kill Cas. Dean even yells out "Just kill him(Cas)" to Death. Cas breaks Death's chain. Is there any reason to think that Death would have stopped Cas from killing D/S/B??? Cas could have tried to kill D/S/B for trying to kill him. Instead, once again, Cas leaves Winchester family unharmed after they just tried to kill him.

Godstiel didn't kill the boys and Bobby because he didn't consider them a threat. But he was clearly enjoying seeing Sam suffering...
And really??? He didn't hurt anybody despite being stabbed in the back??? He had already hurt Sam! Sam thought that Cas was a threat to his brother. Hell, why would he supposed to think otherwise after what Cas had done to him???

(5) I'm not going to even mention all the times Cas chooses to save the Winchesters over his own self interest in MHWGO & TMWWBK.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that, because like I said it's the last action that counts. And the last action was that he turned against the boys. He turned against them and not them against him.

So yes, although I was sick to see Cas break Sam's wall, it doesn't look so bad when combined with Cas not retaliating when the Winchesters were trying to kill Cas. Plus, Cas didn't look like he broke Sam's wall in anger. It looked like Cas was using minimum deadly force to stop conflict, like when a marshal artist tries to end the fight as quickly & least harmful as possible.

He did break the wall to punish them. He could simply zap them to LOST island, he could touch them and make them sleep until it's all over, he could lock them in the panic room... There were hundreds of other, harmless ways to keep them away, but he chose the one that would hurt Sam (physically) and Dean (emotionally) the most.