Purgatory -- What's the Deal?

[SoCal]

So season 7 ends with Castiel and Dean in Pugatory. I'm hoping we can pass a little of hellatus discussing this interesting development.

Are they alive? I thought Purgatory was filled with dead souls who weren't bad enough for Hell but not worthy of Heaven.

How did Levi Dick manage to get them there? Just by exploding in a fountain of black goo? And why just Dean and Castiel? Was proximity the only factor? Levi Dick had an evil smile on his face before he exploded -- I think there has to be something else involved.

Is Castiel stuck in Purgatory? His voice sounded like the Cas of old and if he's an angel, shouldn't he be able to leave? After all, he did go to Hell to rescue Dean. Surely Hell is more difficult to get into and out of than Purgatory.

I have a million questions, how about you?

[AntiArbitrator]

Great topic! To quote Sam Winchester from one of my favorite episodes: "Okay, look, we don't know what they're planning. We got a pile of questions and no shovel. We need help."

I am wondering if Dick's spirit was powerful enough to grab hold and take them with him. Like a ghost grabbing a person. A lot of mythology has people going to the afterlife and returning, but I vaguely recall a god had to release them. I know Supernatural will create their own mythology which is fine by me. I'll think about this overnight.

[SoCal]

I know I keep repeating myself, but I'm hoping we'll find that Frank faked his death and he and Sam team up to rescue Dean and Castiel from Purgatory.

Frank may just be the "shovel" Sam is looking for!

[troubledpenguin]

My question is...is Dick Roman back in purgatory? Or has been obliterated, like Fred's soul on Angel?

[LoveMyBoys]

See, this has been bothering me for some time now: the implication seems to be that NOTHING dies (though we have yet to know the final destinations of some of SN's denizens once they're killed, like angels and demons). The permanence of souls--well, near permanence, because we've seen and been told they can be absorbed or burned/used up--kind of takes away the stakes of death, at least for me. And the nature of Heaven has always bothered me, because repeating life's greatest hits over and over ad infinitum, probably without knowing you're doing so (I forget, but didn't people have to be clued in to that fact?)? I'm with Dean on that one. Of course, it's easy to pass judgment looking in from the outside. But that's another topic.

I guess I'd like to see something come along that shows once you're gone, that's it; you're gone, and it's final. No coming back. Which is why I hope they have the stones to not bring Bobby back from Heaven, much as I will miss him. (I don't like the idea of "bad" ghosts going to Purgatory, so I don't think he's there, nor the boys' parents. I think they are just corrupted human souls, and human souls go one of two places depending on their behavior in life--why shouldn't it extend beyond death?)

Anyway, Cas seemed to imply that Dick went back to Purgatory, so until I'm told otherwise I'm thinking he must be there. Which means he didn't really die so much as transition to another state of existence somewhere else. So Leviathans can't really be killed, can they? Or else we have to revise our concept of what is death. And what of those monster souls already there, preying on one another? What happens when one of them "dies?" Hopefully some or all of these things will be addressed in the next season, which I am SOOO stinkin' excited for!!

[troubledpenguin]

^^Well put and I agree.

[SoCal]

Agreed. I think in the past few seasons, the people running the show and the writers have decided to screw around with the whole idea of "dead being dead."

In seasons 1 and 2, death seemed permanent....at least until AHBL part 2 when Dean sells his soul to bring back Sam. And since then there have been multiple killings and resurrections that I think have weakened the show.

And while I HATE that they decided to kill off Bobby, I wasn't all that thrilled with the idea of Ghost Bobby popping in and out of the boys lives. At a certain point it just looked silly.

As for the Levis.....we have yet to see that they CAN be killed. Remember, even cutting off their heads and separating it from the body didn't actually kill them...it just slowed them down until the parts could re-connect.

Now Purgatory could be interesting. I always thought Purgatory was a place where dead souls went who were in a state of sin and not worthy of Heaven, but hadn't done anything evil enough to land in Hell. Now the Supernatural writers have turned that upside down -- it's a place where God puts "monsters" to keep them locked up. Does that mean Dean and Castiel are alive? Is Dick alive? Was the weapon Dean stuck him with enough to kill him? Or is he (it?) still alive and back in Purgatory?

Thoughts?

[LoveMyBoys]

Yeah, cutting off leviathans' heads isn't a way to kill them, just put them out of commission for a while, and dousing them in Borax just temporarily burns them, but I guess I had the (mistaken) impression that the consecrated bone they used on Dick--ooh, bad sentence --was a way to actually kill him, not just temporarily disable him like head-cutting (no, more bad images--oh, what this season has done regarding the humor!). It seems like every time we turn around, ANOTHER something is being introduced as something which can't really die, or be permanently gone, and that's a big bother for me. If ganked angels and demons can't ever come back, that'll be a breath of fresh air, and refreshing for once. But I don't hold out for that to be true based on the show's trend.

I have no problem with the take the SN writers wanted to have on Purgatory; I kind of find it interesting. But I hope they don't also include the traditional definition and start muddling things altogether, as it can get messy enough as it is just keeping the rules straight.

I want to say Dean and Cas are alive, since I have no reason to think they died to be transported there, but how are they alive in Purgatory? If Dean has to be there for long, how is he going to survive? What will serve as food for him? I don't even know what to make of Dick since he was "killed" to return him to Purgatory. Did "dying" simply send him to another place, or did it also change his physical state of being? If he's there with them in Purgatory, will he be able to still look like Dick Roman or will he be in his original Leviathan form? Are there other monsters which are alive in Purgatory, or are they all in soul form? And as I asked previously, what happens when those monsters tear each other to shreds? If they're already dead, can they die again?

Much like you, I'm face with similar questions and not much information on which to base speculations. If in the coming season we can get some of the answers, and those answers satisfactorily hold up and don't contradict what's come before, I'll be very happy.

[troubledpenguin]

Has it been discussed before what happens to angels when they die?

[LoveMyBoys]

I don't know if it's been discussed, here or on the old board, but as far as the show goes we don't yet know. That may be something they touch on with this storyline in season 8.

[AntiArbitrator]

May 25, 2012 19:26:30 GMT -5 @troubledpenguin said:

Has it been discussed before what happens to angels when they die?

Angels do not have souls and there was never any talk of dead angels returning to Heaven. The way Castiel and other angels mourned the loss of their brothers and sisters caused me to think they would never see them again. It seemed that when they die, they are gone forever unless God brings them back.

[SoCal]

May 25, 2012 19:53:54 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

May 25, 2012 19:26:30 GMT -5 @troubledpenguin said:

Has it been discussed before what happens to angels when they die?

Angels do not have souls and there was never any talk of dead angels returning to Heaven. The way Castiel and other angels mourned the loss of their brothers and sisters caused me to think they would never see them again. It seemed that when they die, they are gone forever unless God brings them back.

Right. Angels are not formally humans, they are extraordinary creatures created by God. And so far, the only angel we've seen get resurrected multiples times is Castiel. All the other angels who have been killed (Uriel, Zachariah, Anna) seem to be gone for good.

I, too, don't mind if the Supernatural writers muck around a bit with Purgatory mythology, but enough with the resurrections already.

And a good point, LMB.....if Dean is alive and in Purgatory for a while, what does he eat to stay alive? Of course, that's only if the storyline picks up immediately from season 7's ending and Dean is broken out of Purgatory almost immediately.

[AntiArbitrator]

It looked as if the monsters that were stalking Dean in Purgatory were big/long and solid and had red eyes. Supernatural might ignore Dick in Purgatory, but my best guess is he would be in solid monster form like those other creatures. I recall that the souls that Dean and Sam saw in Heaven, like Ash, were in solid form.

Just watched the finale for the third time and realized Dick was actually laughing when he exploded into black goo. Before that, he was smiling. That's creepy.

[SoCal]

I noticed Dick's creepy smile and chuckling as he was "vibrating" before he exploded. Does that mean he doesn't really die? Does he assume Leviathan monster form back in Purgatory? What DOES kill Leviathans? And if they were bad enough for God to lock them away in Purgatory, why didn't He just destroy them?

[LoveMyBoys]

May 25, 2012 20:17:13 GMT -5 SoCal said:

May 25, 2012 19:53:54 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Angels do not have souls and there was never any talk of dead angels returning to Heaven. The way Castiel and other angels mourned the loss of their brothers and sisters caused me to think they would never see them again. It seemed that when they die, they are gone forever unless God brings them back.

Right. Angels are not formally humans, they are extraordinary creatures created by God. And so far, the only angel we've seen get resurrected multiples times is Castiel. All the other angels who have been killed (Uriel, Zachariah, Anna) seem to be gone for good.

Yes, but this is really "just for now," "by our best estimates," is it not? It's only been implied by what we've seen and heard, not said outright definitively. I also believe it, but much more conditionally than I used to--after everything they've done on this front in the past few seasons, nothing is certain until they say so. (And sometimes not even then. )

[SoCal]

You're so right. All the "truths" the writers have given us over the first 2-3 seasons have been turned upside down....or at least are no longer the truths they want to continue to tell.

Shouldn't there be SOME absolutes? Without them any sacrifice the boys make becomes less important because, seeminly, the circumstances can be changed. Why even have them fight the "bad things" if they can be brought back to life or resurrected or time travel or........

[LoveMyBoys]

May 25, 2012 22:12:20 GMT -5 SoCal said:

Shouldn't there be SOME absolutes? Without them any sacrifice the boys make becomes less important because, seeminly, the circumstances can be changed. Why even have them fight the "bad things" if they can be brought back to life or resurrected or time travel or........

Yes. Yes! THIS. You've beautifully expressed what I've been thinking but in different words. (Thank you.) It's part of a bigger shift the show has made that continually bugs me as the seasons wear on. A hunter's funeral used to mean something, it was done for a reason, yet the angels resurrected Adam from his ashes, no different from if he'd been buried in the ground and his body was still around. But Sam wouldn't let Bobby burn Dean when he went to Hell because he'd need his body. And Lucifer (I think it was him) seemed to indicate that even tiny pieces of Sam spread all across the world could be resurrected, which to me meant that there would always be the threat of the Apocalypse, and the boys could always be brought back to serve as vessels no matter how far off into the future they tried to put it. Then we had Bobby coming back. Now, I suppose someone well versed enough in the lore could find a way to skirt around it, so I guess I can buy Bobby doing it, but still ...

There should be stuff that you can't come back from, that you can't undo. I want more permanent consequences so that as you say, the sacrifices they make mean something.

"Why are we even bothering to do this?" "Because it might work." "Oh, well; by all means, then." *rolls eyes* Sheesh.

[SoCal]

Yup.....there have to be some consequences to what the boys do, otherwise.....none of it means much.

Your ending lines...."it might work," "rolls eyes." Just kills me, but in a good way.

You should e-mail that to the new show runner.

[SoCal]

Hey.....do you suppose maybe Dean and Castiel will find Frank in Purgatory? I mean, maybe that's where some of their victims go. Just a thought.

[LoveMyBoys]

When you say "their victims," who exactly is they? I'm unclear on that. At first I was thinking Sam and Dean, but then their victims are monsters, and it makes sense those victims would go to Purgatory. So my second thought was that you meant Leviathans, since they seem the most likely suspects to have killed Frank (if he is in fact dead). But Frank's not a monster, and unless Cas and Dean do find him or someone else like that--Bobby, their mom or dad--then we have no reason to believe the writers are adhering to the traditional definition/usage of Purgatory. (And as I previously said, I hope they don't, just so we've got SN's own unique take on the subject.) But who knows? Who knows how the writers plan to get them out and what will unfold before they do? They've definitely got a lot of options, so it's going to be at least interesting if nothing else.

Another thought on the subject: do you suppose time is different in Purgatory, like it is in Hell? And if it is, do you think it's the same rate exchange or different from Hell? I'd think Hell's time would be greater, but Purgatory is kind of like Hell for monsters, so maybe God wanted that punishment to drag on, too.

[SoCal]

You're right....I wasn't specific. I was indeed referring to victims of the leviathans. And the only reason I came up with that is the completely selfish one that, if they did kill Frank, maybe he was sent to Purgatory since it seems to be the only place the leviathans have known. Makes no sense, I know, I was just grasping at straws in the hopes that somehow Frank would reappear in season 8.

Of course, the best option is that Frank faked his death and dropped off the grid (like he advised Dean and Sam to do) and will re-appear in season 8 to team up with Sam.

I like your idea of time being different in Purgatory just like it is in Hell, but I don't want the boys to be separated in this fashion for too long. Neither brother does well that way. If they have to be separated, let it be for a few days at a time, when they're on a case and where they can at least communicate by phone.

[LoveMyBoys]

I hear ya. Once I saw people floating the possibility that Frank faked his death--something I hadn't even considered while watching the past season, what with all that blood in his trailer--I too started to hope he might just be in hiding.

For the first time I'm not upset that ONCE AGAIN they're separated, and I didn't realize why until I read someone else's thoughts on this (here or elsewhere, I forget which): this separation was forced; they didn't choose to be this way. I won't even mind if it's for a while, either--don't know if I could take it for half a season, though, per some speculation. Soulless Sam was interesting enough, but when LAV rolled around I discovered just how much I had missed Sam!!

Perhaps if they do have time work differently in Purgatory, then it'll be a comparatively short time on Earth before Cas and Dean get back. And maybe it won't be quite like the bigger time difference with Hell.

[SoCal]

I've been coming to the (sad) conclusion that we're not yet done with angels intererence with Dean and Sam. I was hoping that once Castiel was destroyed by the parasite leviathins, we were done with angels. But now I see that Castiel seems to be his old self again the Purgatory with Dean. Didn't his demeanor and voice seem like the Cas of old?

I have nothing against Misha Collins, but I find the whole angels storyline has really run past its useful prime. If angels can fix everything, what do we need with hunters. If we don't need hunters, then what becomes of Dean and Sam?

I want the boys back as the main focus of the Supernatural world not sidekicks to some angelic force (no matter how good Misha is as Castiel). If they could kill off Bobby, then they should get rid of ALL the angels. Please.

Thoughts?

[AntiArbitrator]

I have been browsing and here are some random comments by others.




It seems people do want to see Dean in Purgatory. Should be interesting.

[SoCal]

I'm certainly not against seeing Dean in Purgatory......AS LONG AS THE STORIES ARE GOOD!

[AntiArbitrator]

Your wish is my command. Let's see Dean in Purgatory.

[SoCal]

I want to see that red-eyed creature!!!!!!! Yikes

[SoCal]

Does anyone else have any ideas about what Purgatory might have in store for Dean and Castiel?

I'm thinking that since Castiel is an angel, he can get out of Purgatory. Then again, Death said that God put some of the most awful stuff there and it seems to have kept them inside until Cas opened up the gate.

I want to know what populates Purgatory. Just evil creatures like leviathans? Or does it contain a multitude of creatures and souls and the like?

Does anyone else have an idea?

[AntiArbitrator]

I pondered your question and honestly, I had no clue. So I needed something to jumpstart my brain. I knew about the TV Guide article, but the only info I had was that Dean would return quickly. I had no idea that __________ was the one who sent Dean and Castiel to Purgatory. Obvious S8 implications ahead... so I will scroll down some. But hopefully, I am the last one to get info from the article. Only the words in quotation marks can be considered Singer's exact words.






Why did Crowley send Dean to Purgatory and leave Sam alone?

The demon doesn't like either brother but unfortunately, "Dean was with the angel Cas," Crowley's sworn enemy, "when they found Roman," explains exec producer Robert Singer. "That decision plays well into next season because Sam (Jared Padalecki) has generally been the more sensitive one, and to have him deal with a human problem rather than a supernatural one just seemed right to us." But as soon as Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Cas (Misha Collins) found themselves in Purgatory, the angel dematerialized. Misha's minions can relax --that doesn't mean fan favorite Cas is gone for good when the show returns next season. "Our intention is to have Cas back for a number of episodes," Singer promises.

Then..., there's this stray quote in the corner of the blurb.

"The brothers are reunited on screen quickly, but much time will have passed," says executive producer Robert Singer.
***

The article has changed my thinking. If Crowley could rig events so that Castiel would wind up in Purgatory, and Dean was collateral damage, then Crowley might be toying with them. He might take his cue from Lucifer's bag of tricks and plan to have them "die over and over again until the end of time".

Maybe Castiel did not dematerialize on his own and Crowley jerked him somewhere leaving Dean standing there with that WTF!! expression on his face. That would be beyond cruel.

We must consider how HOT! and HUNKY! Dean looked standing there. Maybe the monsters will all start fighting each other over who gets to keep Dean as a pet and that gives Dean a chance to hide.

Seriously, though, I think Supernatural's Purgatory omits the "in the crossroad" souls and is made up of true monsters with souls. If the soul is the catalyst that traps the monsters, then maybe Castiel can go in and out. Then, he will need to dodge Crowley, collect bones of saints, some more Phoenix ashes, lots of silver, and round up some allies to get Dean's body out, along with his soul. Dean is very dangerous with a soul so we don't want him returning soulless.

Well... that's my brainstorming for right now. Just random thoughts. Don't grade me on them.

[SoCal]

Interesting, Anti. You seem to suggest it was Crowley who sent Dean and Castiel to Purgatory rather than that they were caught up in the "explosion" of Dick Roman. I wonder if that's true or, if, as Crowley said to Sam.....something like "God's weapons are dangerous and should come with cautionary instructions for users."

But Crowley was awfully snarky and sure of himself and what happened to Dean and where he went when he disappeared after Dick blew up. So just what did Crowley know or is he just trying to make himself look more powerful to Sam? That's going to keep me wondering for the rest of the summer.

As for the Singer interview, I'm at a loss to decided what exactly he means. OK, the boys will be reunited quickly as season 8 starts but "much time will have passed." Much time for both Dean and Sam or just much time for Sam or just much time for Dean? I hope the writers have come up with something good.

And your thought about Castiel disappearing not by his own actions is scary. Dean alone in Purgatory with all those monsters God locked away several millenia ago? Yikes. I'm hoping Castiel is back to his normal self (I guess we're stuck with him for another season) and has the ability to "get out of jail." Whether that means he can help Dean get out, well, we'll just have to see.

And I agree.....no soulless Dean. Soulless Sam was scary enough, a soulless Dean might just be a serial killer.

I am eagerly waiting to see what the writers do with Purgatory. Will it be a major focus of season 9 or will it be dropped after the first couple of episodes. Will we be dealing with rogue leviathans next season? How do they function without a leader? Will other monsters/ghosts/lost souls fight against them or with them?

Is it October yet?

My brain is tired. I hope all you others have some good ideas to share as well.