Purgatory -- What's the Deal?

[AntiArbitrator]

Oct 2, 2012 12:09:14 GMT -5 SoCal said:

The more I think about it, the more shocked I am that Sam would just leave hunting and not try to search for Dean.

Dean tried looking for Sam after he went to the cage, but Sam just decides to throw in the towel and walk away from the life?

You'd have thought he might have tried for a couple of months to find out what happened to Dean (and maybe Castiel ).

Some brother.

This is exactly what is disturbing to a lot of fans. Maybe it will not look as bad as it sounds, but I do not have much hope for that.

[SoCal]

I hope you're right Anti. Sometimes the tidbits we hear from the actors/production staff can be just the tiniest bit misleading. I'm sure they don't want us to guess exactly where the season is going. They're probably having a little fun with us more rabid fans. That sounds like the kind of joking they would do to us.

*fingers crossed*

[ezpzy]

PURGATORY IS PURE
Do you think Purgatory is pure because what you see is what you get? You don't have to wonder who is an ally or a foe. If it moves, kill it. There are no shades of gray. Dean was more comfortable with the hunter's life before he realized not all of the monsters (vampires like Lenore) deserved to be killed.

[SoCal]

I guess it depends on how you define: PURE.

I like your idea that there were no shades of gray. Black and white. Kill or be killed.

I'm hoping they define it more fully as the season progresses.

[AntiArbitrator]

An escape route for humans. Had anyone guessed that theory? I never thought of that.

[SoCal]

Yeah, that's a nice twist.

But how did Dean manage to get out with Purgatory formed weapons?

And how does a vampire "soul" hiding in a human get past the barriers?

I'm interested to see how all the Purgatory stories play out.

[LoveMyBoys]

Oct 14, 2012 10:36:58 GMT -5 SoCal said:

But how did Dean manage to get out with Purgatory formed weapons?

I imagine he takes whatever he has on him, a la the demon-killing knife he brought in (which I found interesting--I thought it was topside with Sam). I'm thinking the barrier just keeps in/out denizens, not stuff.

And how does a vampire "soul" hiding in a human get past the barriers?

I'm interested to see how all the Purgatory stories play out.

My guess: hiding in a human means he can't be detected by the barriers as he would trying to directly pass through them. But for that matter, how does he hitch a ride inside a human? Because he's a soul, a "ghost," he can possess as other ghosts do? That doesn't seem likely because Dean wasn't possessed, just carrying a passenger in his arm (which was also interesting).

I, too, am intrigued to see how it all plays out.

[SoCal]

Good reasoning, but, let me ask this.....do vampires have souls? Aren't they dead? How does a dead thing have a soul?

The mystery deepens.....

[AntiArbitrator]

I thought all of the monsters had souls, including the demons and the leviathans. Those are the souls Castiel consumed. If this is true, why did the man say Crowley does not have a soul? Was that a clue to a mystery that will be important later?

[SoCal]

Interesting that in episode 8.03, Dean seemed NOT to be having anymore Purgatory flashbacks. He seemed happy to be hunting and nothing seemed to remind him of his year in Purgatory.

Gee, that was fast!

[AntiArbitrator]

I think the fun he had in Purgatory rev'd up his "I wanna go hunting" mood. Purgatory seemed to remind him of how much fun it is to hunt monsters instead of dealing with the other crap. I recall him asking Sam one time if he remembered what it was like to just hunt monsters.

The only downside to Purgatory seems to be his loss of Castiel.

Am I looking at this in a weird way?

[novemberschild]

Anti, you are not looking at this in a weird way.

I think the problem with this episode was that, with it being shot out of sequence that at that point Jensen didn't have a good handle on "purgatory Dean" yet and wasn't quite sure how to play him, because in this one he acts like he hasn't a care in the world, and that just comes off as really strange when compared to the other 2 episodes.

[SoCal]

Is it possible you're both right?

Nah, that can't be it.

[AntiArbitrator]

SoCal, you couldn't possibly agree with two Cas fans at the same time, could you?

I had not thought about the episodes being shot out of sequence, and there was certainly a major difference in attitude.

[novemberschild]

two Cas fans, that's pretty funny

In 8.01 and 8.02 Dean was focused, determined, raw, and always on edge.
In 8.03 It was like he knew he was going to hunt monsters forever and there wasn't any reason to worry about anything, it was like he was going around with a "devil may care attitude"
It was a major difference from the first 2 episodes.

[SoCal]

Oct 18, 2012 21:11:00 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

SoCal, you couldn't possibly agree with two Cas fans at the same time, could you?

Most certainly a sign of the apocalypse!

But, seriously, even Cas fans can stumble onto the truth at least once in their lifetimes!

[SoCal]

Oct 18, 2012 21:37:35 GMT -5 novemberschild said:

two Cas fans, that's pretty funny

In 8.01 and 8.02 Dean was focused, determined, raw, and always on edge.
In 8.03 It was like he knew he was going to hunt monsters forever and there wasn't any reason to worry about anything, it was like he was going around with a "devil may care attitude"
It was a major difference from the first 2 episodes.

What you said! In spades.

[AntiArbitrator]

I do not see any reason for another shot of Purgatory so I'll give my comments now. Some of the things I liked...

1. Bad-ass Hunter Dean! Ask questions, but still eliminate the enemy. No second-guessing, no guilt trips.

2. Special effects for the Leviathans' entry. Much better than topside.

3. Dean hugging Castiel and his determination to rescue Castiel.

4. The gray tone to Purgatory made it suitably a place without hope or lightness.

5. Dean-Benny arm grip to transfer Benny's soul.

6. Benny's reaction to Castiel's lack of humor.

I am sure more will come to me. There was nothing that I disliked - except maybe Castiel looking so downtrodden.

[LoveMyBoys]

Speaking of Purgatory, I just found myself musing on this earlier today: why do you suppose Cas snapped back to his old self once he was in Purgatory? What was it about the place that erased the crazy? I don't know why I never really thought about it before, but now it's kind of bugging me that we never got a good explanation for it.

[AntiArbitrator]

Nov 24, 2012 23:38:00 GMT -5 LoveMyBoys said:

Speaking of Purgatory, I just found myself musing on this earlier today: why do you suppose Cas snapped back to his old self once he was in Purgatory? What was it about the place that erased the crazy? I don't know why I never really thought about it before, but now it's kind of bugging me that we never got a good explanation for it.

I have been thinking about this ever since you mentioned it and I re-watched "Survival Of The Fittest" today to see if Castiel was crazy at the end of S7. In that episode, Cas was talking about bees & honey, monkeys & make-up, pacifism in general, and was using avoidance techniques like playing Twister. He no longer suffered Hellucinations and, in my opinion, was not crazy in that episode. He was lucid enough to lie to Crowley and Crowley did not detect the lie; he made moves to protect Meg from Crowley; and when Cas saw that Dean was on the path to forgive him, he made a decision to help them. Castiel made conscious decisions throughout the entire episode and was never out of control. The decision to help the boys made him revert to soldier mode.

I think Supernatural was having some fun at Cas' and the fans expense by overdoing the pacifism.

Btw, Purgatory showed up even better on the DVD than it did when it aired.

[novemberschild]

I felt from the moment Cas decided to help the boys and stepped into Roman Inc. he changed, his demeanor and everything about him changed.

Once he got sucked into Purgatory, he had to keep his wits about him to survive. He was being hunted by everything in Purgatory and had to keep one step ahead of the creatures who were after him. He couldn't do that and still be "off".
I thought there was an interview with Misha around the start of the season that kind of explained this?

[SoCal]

So far, Dean's time in Purgatory has gotten short shrift. I hope that when the new episodes return in January, we get more than a few 30-second flashbacks.

So far, Sam has dominated the flashback part of our story.

[LoveMyBoys]

Dec 12, 2012 17:02:58 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

I have been thinking about this ever since you mentioned it and I re-watched "Survival Of The Fittest" today to see if Castiel was crazy at the end of S7. In that episode, Cas was talking about bees & honey, monkeys & make-up, pacifism in general, and was using avoidance techniques like playing Twister. He no longer suffered Hellucinations and, in my opinion, was not crazy in that episode. He was lucid enough to lie to Crowley and Crowley did not detect the lie; he made moves to protect Meg from Crowley; and when Cas saw that Dean was on the path to forgive him, he made a decision to help them. Castiel made conscious decisions throughout the entire episode and was never out of control. The decision to help the boys made him revert to soldier mode.

I think Supernatural was having some fun at Cas' and the fans expense by overdoing the pacifism.

Btw, Purgatory showed up even better on the DVD than it did when it aired.

That makes sense; I guess I just saw it differently. I read that as Cas' version of crazy, after Sam's Hellucinations--I like that ;D--had worn off (because that wasn't Cas' to suffer in the first place). And despite being crazy, I never found it odd that he could be lucid or make conscious decisions through it--Sam did as well up to the end. But if what you've said is true, that still leaves a poor explanation of exactly when and how he was able to snap out of it and no longer be crazy himself. At least to me it does.

Dec 12, 2012 21:56:53 GMT -5 novemberschild said:

Once he got sucked into Purgatory, he had to keep his wits about him to survive. He was being hunted by everything in Purgatory and had to keep one step ahead of the creatures who were after him. He couldn't do that and still be "off".
I thought there was an interview with Misha around the start of the season that kind of explained this?

I wasn't aware of that; I don't look for information from sources outside of the show, such as interviews, to glean further details. I think a show should be able to explain itself and stand alone in that regard; you shouldn't have to look outside of a show to understand it (aside from further researching topics that are explored should you want to, such as the lore and legends touched on in SN). But are you saying he chose to no longer be "off" so he could survive Purgatory or that the need to have his wits about him explains the reason why the writers chose to stop having him be crazy or silly in any capacity?

[novemberschild]

LoveMyBoys, I agree with you that we shouldn't have to look to outside sources to find explanations to the show.

I have been working on trying to stop looking at spoilers, interviews, and promos because I believe they are only meant to stir up the fans with misleading information.

I guess my thoughts were that Cas was cognizant enough to stay away from Dean to protect him when they first got to Purgatory and in the time that he was there he had to focus solely on surviving.
Since he can sense the Levis coming I believe he had to push all the "odd thoughts" out in order to focus.
My apologies if I wasn't very clear, sometimes I don't explain things well.

[AntiArbitrator]

"...for humans, reality is self-induced hallucination."

I enjoy reading other people's interpretations and quite often a totally different view is revealed to me. For example, I never thought Sam was crazy. I saw his ordeal as a struggle to hold onto reality in spite of the Hellucinations. I do realize eventually his brain would have been destroyed.

When Castiel came out of the catatonic state, I did not think he was crazy. Perhaps that is because he personified the flower children of my era. The way he acted was exactly what I was accustomed to in the 1960's so my mind did not classify it as "crazy". It was "make love, not war". Based on that view, as soon as Castiel came out of the catatonic state, he could choose to fight or choose to be childlike.