The Help by Kathryn Stockett

[Mistermoonlight]

Aug 18, 2012 16:19:07 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Thank you. Are we continuing tonight?

Are waiting to read more chapters? (I'm willing to bet both you and I have read past chapter 2.)

Well, GilmoreFanAlways is kinda our leader here. She's the one who made the whole book club happen, so I'll wait to hear from her. I think she's only got the first two chapters on her Kindle as of now, and I don't mind waiting till she gets the rest of the book.

But you're right, I'm almost at the end of chapter 4 now.

[gilmorefanalways]

Thank you moon. I still haven't gotten the book I def will on Monday though. I say from now til next Friday we shall read to chapter eight does this sound good for everyone?

[AntiArbitrator]

Aug 18, 2012 18:17:17 GMT -5 gilmorefanalways said:

Thank you moon. I still haven't gotten the book I def will on Monday though. I say from now til next Friday we shall read to chapter eight does this sound good for everyone?

Yes, that sounds good for me.

[gilmorefanalways]

I have to say I do not like hilly she seems to eager to punish people and I feel sorry for all the victims in this book. But I admire aibileens ability to push things out of her mind that bother her. I admire skeeter for willing to be different I like characters that are different in an unaccepting environment. It saddens me the way mrs leefolt is to her daughter. I feel there's going to be some run in over mae's affections between abileen and Mrs leefolt. Perhaps that will be what sparks abileens motivation to change things

[gilmorefanalways]

Anti to answer your inquiry of what I'm reading and what I was taught in school we were told yes there was racism but they only gave a few examples whereas in the book I am learning many details I never knew of for instance the separate bathrooms and the separate entrances and black people not allowed to try on clothes before purchasing and all of this in only the first two chapters.

[gilmorefanalways]

And I believe perhaps when abileen answered the handy man at the doors question concerning a bathroom I believe there was an example of how parents have taught their children over the years, many were taught racism and therefore passed it along to there children some without even knowing they were doing so. Thus instilling those beliefs in generation after generation, as aibileen did not like or agree about the bathroom situation yet when given the oppurtunity to change it she spouted out what her environment created within her that the handy man could not use the same restrooms as whites therefore continuing on the cycle

[AntiArbitrator]

Thank you GilmoreFan. I wondered if the school system taught that racism permeated every aspect of people's lives including where they could eat, where they could sit on buses and even who they could look at in public. A friend who grew up in Greensborough (sp), North Carolina said a black man could be arrested for eyeballing a white woman. He was serious and said if someone thought the man was staring at the woman, he would be in trouble so he and his peers were taught to look at the ground in a white woman's presence. This happened in the 60s.

One of the things that bothered me in the story is the awkward and embarrassing position the maids were put in when responding to requests. Aibileen had to shame the man who was building the toilet by telling him he had to urinate outside behind the house. She mentioned there was a dog out back who would not bother him.

I think there is meaning in the phrases that the author inserts into conversations. In this instance, mentioning the dog alludes to the man having to urinate in the yard like a dog.

Edit:

Aug 18, 2012 18:49:38 GMT -5 gilmorefanalways said:

And I believe perhaps when abileen answered the handy man at the doors question concerning a bathroom I believe there was an example of how parents have taught their children over the years, many were taught racism and therefore passed it along to there children some without even knowing they were doing so. Thus instilling those beliefs in generation after generation, as aibileen did not like or agree about the bathroom situation yet when given the oppurtunity to change it she spouted out what her environment created within her that the handy man could not use the same restrooms as whites therefore continuing on the cycle

I believe this is another example of the fear MisterMoonlight brought to light. Aibileen was both bothered by and afraid to let the man use the bathroom. After the conversation about the bathroom for the help, Aibileen knew she would be punished if she let the man inside the house.

I agree her beliefs had been passed down through generations and would continue to be reinforced unless a major change happened.

[Mistermoonlight]

I am so upset with the author's sophomoric framing technique in chapter 5 that I could almost spit bullfrogs. I'll reveal more of what I mean when we get there.

[AntiArbitrator]

Gee, it must be bad! Can't wait.

[Mistermoonlight]

The scene mentioned in chapter two where the black man in his 70s asks Aibelene for a drink of water and where he might go to the bathroom tugged at my soul. He is respectful of Aibelene and uses the term 'make water' instead of something more vulgar.

There is a quality of gentleness and sweetness in this man that reminds me of many of the elderly black men that I have known, as well as my own father. There is something about age, that if we are lucky, brings grace.

The fact is, it's 1962. President John F. Kennedy is President. Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security will not exist until 1965, a legacy that is pushed forward after the late President's death, by his successor Lyndon Baines Johnson.

There is no safety net for this man, whom we gather has worked hard his entire life, indeed there is no safety at all. Because we are at the very beginning of the Civil Rights movement.

There are three bathrooms in the house. This man has to go in the yard, because he is seen as 'the other' and is 'less than.' That one small scene broke my heart, because I remember.

[AntiArbitrator]

The pain expressed in your message brings the scene to life, and I can see the hopelessness of the 70-year-old man's future. He must continue to humble himself and accept hard work because there is no safety net. That is truly sad, and I am thankful for our Presidents who had empathy for the hard working people who did not have rich parents.

[AntiArbitrator]

Aug 17, 2012 6:39:34 GMT -5 avp60685 said:

... I was born in the 1980's I still see glimpses of segregation especially in the deeper part of the South where my mom's family is from. And sometimes I see it here in Maryland, someone will go try to get past me in the grocery store and say "Excuse me" and when I comment "Oh, I am so sorry about that" so I move out of the way and as they walk past me they give me a funny look and proceed as if I hadn't say anything.

I expect AVP to stop by on Monday morning, so I am posting a question for her now.

AVP, I am surprised that you continue to see segregation in Maryland. The act of segregation is not clear to me in your example. Please elaborate so that I can understand the significance of the look that made you realize segregation is being practiced. Very interesting.

[gilmorefanalways]

I stillsee plenty of racism

[AntiArbitrator]

Me too. I see racism, but I cannot think of a recent issue of segregation, with the exception of gender. We still have all boy schools and all girl schools.

[avp60685]

Aug 19, 2012 18:00:11 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Aug 17, 2012 6:39:34 GMT -5 avp60685 said:

... I was born in the 1980's I still see glimpses of segregation especially in the deeper part of the South where my mom's family is from. And sometimes I see it here in Maryland, someone will go try to get past me in the grocery store and say "Excuse me" and when I comment "Oh, I am so sorry about that" so I move out of the way and as they walk past me they give me a funny look and proceed as if I hadn't say anything.

I expect AVP to stop by on Monday morning, so I am posting a question for her now.

AVP, I am surprised that you continue to see segregation in Maryland. The act of segregation is not clear to me in your example. Please elaborate so that I can understand the significance of the look that made you realize segregation is being practiced. Very interesting.

Sure I can elaborate on this for you! Let me back up a little and tell of my own personal background:

My father was one of three sons who was raised by an Army-Air Force cook during World War II and his mother was from Macedonia and she apparently was a soft spoken woman who treated my father like the living end.

I cannot vouch for this because my father's parents died before I was born but I apparently have some of her ways. For instance she could speak at least 5-6 languages because she had been a governess and a seamstress at various times in her life before she married my grandfather. My father because of his father being in the military grew up in almost every state of the union even Alaska when it was still a territory at the time.

My father mostly called Georgia home and that is where my dad's parents and his twin brother are buried. Also my grandfather was from South Carolina and had a large family due to the fact his father had been married to three different women and had children by each of the wives. I have only met one of these children who was considered to be a nephew of my grandfather's but that was when I was very young like 2 or 3. My dad would tell me that because the nephew and my grandfather were so close in age it was hard to tell that they were uncle and nephew.

On my mom's side of the family, I have a different story altogether:
My mom's grandfather and father both were KKK members and very hateful to all people of non white races. But here's the crazy thing, my grandfather's mother was half blooded Cherokee Indian and if I were to show you a picture of my grandfather you can definitely tell he has some type of Indian blood in him. My grandfather's mother sadly died when he was only 2 and so his father remarried a girl who was like 14 years old and she had to become a mother to my father while still being a child herself.

I only met my grandfather when I was about 18 months so I don't really remember him that well because he died about 4 days after I met him due to a heart attack. My mother's mother and her side of the family are really crazy and hectic so I will spare a lot of the details about them.

To get back about what I was saying about experiencing segregation here in Maryland:
As someone who looks like an typical white American female, I see that when I go into stores or other business establishments and whatnot that sometimes if a non white female sees me use a particular bathroom stall, sink, etc. they sometimes will refuse to use the one I just came out/used/etc. even if that is only one available and will wait until another one is open. This is infuriating!

When I was working at the daycare centers with the agency I was employed with, I would see the employees literally exclude me from conversations even if I was sitting next to them. They thought it was funny to see a white girl carrying her lunch to work instead of going out and buying one every day. Or that I would eat breakfast before I came into work each day. I even heard them make snippy remarks behind my back when I would be changing a child's diaper or helping a child work on a project or whatever else.

I have also tried to ask for help with something when at the store and the worker will avoid my eyes and will turn to the person behind me and ask them very sweetly "How can I help you ma'am/sir?" I then try to point out that I was needing help too but they will avoid my eyes and ignore me.

Well I look forward to commenting more on the book, it was like my comments went by the wayside because I saw no feedback on mines even though I made sure to post mines early so you could read them.

Take care now!

[AntiArbitrator]

Aug 20, 2012 8:09:20 GMT -5 avp60685 said:

Well I look forward to commenting more on the book, it was like my comments went by the wayside because I saw no feedback on mines even though I made sure to post mines early so you could read them.

Thank you for your response to my question.

I believe we piggy-backed on your comments about Aibileen and Miss Leefolt, but please let me know which statements you would like me to comment on.

[avp60685]

If you could comment on the whole statements I made about the chapters I would be very grateful thank you!

I hope I also clarified my explanation about what I meant about experiencing some segregation in Maryland for you Anti!

[AntiArbitrator]

Aug 20, 2012 10:41:26 GMT -5 avp60685 said:

If you could comment on the whole statements I made about the chapters I would be very grateful thank you!

I hope I also clarified my explanation about what I meant about experiencing some segregation in Maryland for you Anti!

Yes, you clarified what you meant. I have no other questions regarding that.

I would be very grateful, thank you, if you would narrow it down for me. What comments did you make that are so very important to you that you chastised us for not commenting on them?

[avp60685]

Okay the main comment, I was wanting some type of feedback on if any was my mentioning that I have been like a maid to some African-American women in my neighborhood. I would have loved to have gotten some type of feedback on that!

[Mistermoonlight]

Aug 20, 2012 10:48:07 GMT -5 avp60685 said:

Okay the main comment, I was wanting some type of feedback on if any was my mentioning that I have been like a maid to some African-American women in my neighborhood. I would have loved to have gotten some type of feedback on that!

Can you give us some historical points on when in time this happened?

BIG mistake on my part, which I discovered after reading subsequent chapters, Social Security DID not start in 1965. It was signed into law by FDR in 1935, so Stockett's line about white employers not contributing to it was right. They by and large paid in cash.

[AntiArbitrator]

Thanks for the correction. Gosh, remembering dates is the most difficult thing for me to do, followed closely by remembering faces.

[avp60685]

I would have to say I started doing my maid like duties in 2006 while I was attending community college. I literally had a circle of neighbors I was helping, I would go from one house then two houses down from that I would be helping them and a house across the cove I would be helping out there too.

I know that I was paid in cash and a few times they had a little additional gift for my services such as a small bag of food stuffs or clothing items.

In a lot of ways I was like a caregiver for two of these neighbors, one is no longer living but I would literally go with her to health care appointments and do other errands for her. I still remember one time I went with her to the eye doctor who had some type of Asian background and he made the comment "You are just so cute" and he pinches my cheeks "I am sorry but you are just so adorable out for helping out Mrs. Scott here." I smiled politely and sighed as I watched the examinations taking place.

I think of because of my maid like duties I know how to run a household on my own and am able to do a lot of cooking and cleaning that many young women and men alike do not know how do until they get their own homes. I am able to cook, clean, vacuum, mop, do laundry (and I mean washing and putting it away), taking out trash, some sweeping, emptying and filling a dishwasher.

Because of my experience, I really know what it means to do these things and not struggling to comprehend what people mean when they ask someone to do them. Also I know how to cut a yard with power lawnmower and do trim work as well and like I said many young people do not know how to do these tasks and will not know how to do them until they are living on their own!

[AntiArbitrator]

Spoiled white kids only.

[gilmorefanalways]

I see many instances where races sit together we segregate ourselves now and again i wonder if this is what our environment created within us

[avp60685]

Aug 20, 2012 17:57:57 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Spoiled white kids only.

I hate to say it but I have seen a lot of spoiled black kids too!
It makes me so mad, I want to say "Would it kill you to sweat?"

[avp60685]

Aug 20, 2012 17:59:57 GMT -5 gilmorefanalways said:

I see many instances where races sit together we segregate ourselves now and again i wonder if this is what our environment created within us

I think it depends on how you were raised, I always sat with the kids who were considered "the outsiders" and "foreigner" because I could relate better to them than I could the regular American kids. I think because of this, a lot of people are surprised that I am so nice and willing to help out whatever way I can without demanding anything back in return.

[gilmorefanalways]

When i went to school on the bus black people would sit in back of the bus cuz they wanted to and they didnt wany anyone else sitting back there and at lunch there were mamy tables of either solid white black or Mexican of course there were some tables that were intermixed and some places you go for any race of person there are strange looks and and a weird vibe like you dont belong here

[AntiArbitrator]

Aug 20, 2012 17:59:57 GMT -5 gilmorefanalways said:

I see many instances where races sit together we segregate ourselves now and again i wonder if this is what our environment created within us

Excellent observation. I see this happening a great majority of the time. I believe it is a combination of having been snubbed by people of another race (not white people only), feeling naturally comfortable with one's own race, and being "warned" about other races.

A topic that is discussed regularly here, accompanied by laughter, is that we will board public transportation and the first thing we look for is a seat away from everyone else; second choice is someone of our color, and third choice is gender. It is a common practice.

[avp60685]

Oh yeah I know what you are saying Jennifer! When i was in school, the black kids sat in the back, the white kids (there was only like 4 of us on my bus) we sat wherever we could, the Spanish kids were in the middle somewhere and a few sat in the front like some who were African or Caribbean/Island kids

[gilmorefanalways]

Got my copy and realized my kindle didnt have all of chap two so i finished that chap and now in chap three