A Prayer for Owen Meany by John Irving- DISCUSSION

[gilmorefanalways]

I thought it interesting that upon Owens attempt at meeting the cousins each characters personality is clearly revealed in the scene within the attic
Simon is portrayed as dangerously persistent
Noah the aggressive abuser, also persistent
Hester standing there as obviously sexual as john deacribes her.
And john the only connection between Owen and the cousins is portrayed as only a fearful observer whereas Owen is described as a diminutive god however if you look closer his stance and the light showing through his protrusive ears along with his hands behind his back speaks to me of owens rabbit like qualities.small defenseless and timid.the savagery in that room compared to Owens timid qualities tells me something will occur between these three parties ( owen,john and the cousins) that will undoubtedly change each individual and to which owen will have no defenses against these cousins.the placement of the blazing sun behind owen enforces my belief that Owen has a purpose for meeting and knowing these cousins. What that purpose is we will have to wait to see.

[Mistermoonlight]

I'm really looking forward to our discusssion of chapter 2 tonight.

I fear I will be a tad late, as I just got home from work and realize I have one small errand to run soon. I should only be a few minutes late, so feel free to start without me. It shouldn't take long.

[AntiArbitrator]

The amount of time devoted to describing Tabby shows me that no matter what others might think of her, she is very important to both John and Owen. I find it interesting that in spite of Tabby falling from Grace by having John out of wedlock, Owen said “YOUR MOTHER IS A PERFECT WOMAN.” I know Owen was not talking about her physical attractiveness and his words should always be taken literally; so I believe he did see Tabby as a perfect woman. Harming the perfect woman must have an enormous impact on Owen. I want to know what the impact is.

[Mistermoonlight]

Yes, she is really kinda the perfect woman, isn't she? In the movie she's played by Ashley Judd, who just personifies that on the screen.

I think one of the most important things this chapter does is introduce us to the man she met on 'the good old Boston and Main,' Dan Needham. What did you think of him?

And how about his gift of the stuffed armadillo--and the instructions, "let me know if it moves."

[Mistermoonlight]

Dec 21, 2012 19:49:13 GMT -5 gilmorefanalways said:

I thought it interesting that upon Owens attempt at meeting the cousins each characters personality is clearly revealed in the scene within the attic
Simon is portrayed as dangerously persistent
Noah the aggressive abuser, also persistent
Hester standing there as obviously sexual as john deacribes her.
And john the only connection between Owen and the cousins is portrayed as only a fearful observer whereas Owen is described as a diminutive god however if you look closer his stance and the light showing through his protrusive ears along with his hands behind his back speaks to me of owens rabbit like qualities.small defenseless and timid.the savagery in that room compared to Owens timid qualities tells me something will occur between these three parties ( owen,john and the cousins) that will undoubtedly change each individual and to which owen will have no defenses against these cousins.the placement of the blazing sun behind owen enforces my belief that Owen has a purpose for meeting and knowing these cousins. What that purpose is we will have to wait to see.

I'm far enough away from my last reading of the book not to remember what role they may or may not play in the future, but I think your characterizations are spot-on.

[AntiArbitrator]

Dec 22, 2012 18:44:57 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

Yes, she is really kinda the perfect woman, isn't she? In the movie she's played by Ashley Judd, who just personifies that on the screen.

I think one of the most important things this chapter does is introduce us to the man she met on 'the good old Boston and Main,' Dan Needham. What did you think of him?

And how about his gift of the stuffed armadillo--and the instructions, "let me know if it moves."

I think Dan is a clever man with a wonderful sense of humor. He is probably the type of man most women would glance at and keep walking but there was something special about him that attracted Tabby. He also has patience since it would take a while for his joke to play out. His patience is also apparent in the comedy of the chairs when grandmother would caution him against sitting in the delicate ones. I really laughed at that. The armadillo was a wonderful gift for a boy and the way it was presented was destined to be a memorable one. I laugh every time I think of John’s reaction.

I think the armadillo was infused with love from Dan and that made it important to both John and Owen. I am not kidding! I have a Pound Puppy that affects me that way. I had many pound puppies, but this one has always been special. When I hold and caress it, I get a special feeling. He has been with me for 30 years, and he still sleeps at the head of my bed. That is how I think of Dan’s armadillo.

[Mistermoonlight]

I think that one of the things this novel teaches us is the unknown ways and influence that one life can have upon another.

Someone who can make us laugh, who is broad enough to realize that a smile makes everyone's way easier, is someone to feel grateful for.

In some way, I think Owen's wanting to shepheard the armidillo is a recognition of that spirit. He seems to know on a deeper level how important it is.

I think one of the most moving scenes is John hearing Owen say, "I'M SORRY' after the baseball he hit killed Tabitha. John's head is covered with Mr. Chickering's jacket at that point, so he can only hear but not see.

This is not an off-the-cuff "I'm sorry," it's something Owen feels down to his bones, and wishes hadn't happened.

Yet, in some way he still sees it, as he does all of his life, as something he had to do as 'God's instrument,' even though he hates it more than anything else. He accepts his place.

I think you might also look at the differences between Rev. Wheeler and John Needham in this chapter in terms of male role models.

[AntiArbitrator]

As God's instrument and accepting his place, I wonder if Owen felt responsible for John. John said "Owen Meany rescued me. As you shall see, Owen was always rescuing me..." In that instance, he is talking about his cousin, but he refers to it as a lifelong process. Feeling responsible to guide someone else at Owen's age is remarkable.

I fully expected the cousins to traumatize Owen as soon as he met them, but he had an effect on them that made them complacent in letting him take the lead. They seemed to see something special about him too.

[Mistermoonlight]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like there is something forced in Owen's dialogue with the cousins--maybe not forced, but you can tell that he is trying hard to make everything OK. More importantly, he wants to be liked and accepted. And that really makes you feel for him. He is giving of himself, in a way here, and laying everything on the line, because they very easily could have seen him as a circus-show freak, given their past proclivities.

Was there something about Owen that changed them?

[AntiArbitrator]

I agree that Owen's dialogue was forced. The only time he felt left out was when John was with his cousins and Owen desperately wanted to be accepted by them. The options he gave them were based on what he thought they would like to do, but in each instance, he provided an escape. He took away the burden of anyone saying he could not do what the others could do.

You pose a very meaningful question and I will continue to think about it. My initial impression was that the visual image of Owen being reflected in the sun from the skylight "he looked like a descending angel--a tiny but fiery god..." was enough to shock the cousins into seeing Owen as special. Then, his special voice and manner of speaking was dramatically different.

[AntiArbitrator]

I'm back. I had to locate the paragraph that described Owen's effect on Hester. We know Owen's peers thought it was just a game when they would pick him up and pass him around. There is something more to it. When Hester headed for the dark closet to hide, she was compelled to touch Owen. Hester touched Owen's face and smiled. There is a force surrounding Owen, but I do not know if they could feel that force from across the room. Yet, the cousins responded verbally and agreeably to Owen while John was still dumbfounded.

[AntiArbitrator]

I'm still piecing my thoughts together.

Owen was scared of the dark, but he would regularly play in the dark closet. That might be significant later on. When he wet himself and ran away, my heart went out to him. That would have been embarrassing if he was alone, and I know it was ten times worse because he wanted to make a good impression. The cousins handled that remarkably well because usually rowdy teenagers would laugh at something like that.

It seems the enormity of the event made Owen so emotional that he finally revealed things about his life that he had not talked about before. He was a lonely child whose parents were strange and almost reclusive. Tabby was the only adult who invited him to go places. When he first saw the cousins, he did get a glimpse of what they were like so he knew John was telling the truth about why he was not invited. I think that helped to build his trust and tell John and Tabby what was in his heart.

[Mistermoonlight]

Good points there!

In this chapter I'm also struck by Owen's act of contrition in giving John his baseball cards.

It is Dan Needham who knows exactly what is going on, that the gift of Owen's most precious items are a symbol of his love and must be returned, along with a similar action by John himself, the gift of the armadillo.

For some reason this strikes me as similar of the ritual in certain branches of Christianity where we go through certain actions not knowing exactly why we do them, only that they seem right (if we are lucky) and that they make us feel better.

I'd say that the act of giving of ourselves to the point where it means giving up the thing that means the most to us is important too.

The fact that Dan Needham knows this, and says, "Johnny, I would be honored if anything I gave you could actually be used for anything important--if it were to have any special purpose, I'd be very proud," shows us humility and grace. It shows us that perhaps, Dan Needham is a hero, too.

[gilmorefanalways]

I also think owen felt the impact of her death he knew he was responsible and the only words he could offer was im sorry others I'm sure would have had an abundance of things to say but with owen we are seeing less is more (also apparent in the comparison between his stature and purpose) i believe owen was simply too heart broken and stunned to say much more, but with that one sentence he uttered he made clear what he felt most his sorrow at having done what he had, but one thing that leaves me confused is we hear johnsay he could remember every detail about everything later but how is that if he had the jacket over his head?

[AntiArbitrator]

Dec 22, 2012 22:18:39 GMT -5 gilmorefanalways said:

I also think owen felt the impact of her death he knew he was responsible and the only words he could offer was im sorry others I'm sure would have had an abundance of things to say but with owen we are seeing less is more (also apparent in the comparison between his stature and purpose) i believe owen was simply too heart broken and stunned to say much more, but with that one sentence he uttered he made clear what he felt most his sorrow at having done what he had, but one thing that leaves me confused is we hear johnsay he could remember every detail about everything later but how is that if he had the jacket over his head?

I think the "every detail" that John described is the snapshot his eyes took at the time of the incident. He also remembered what people said around and to him. He could later recall everyone who was in the stands because he was looking at the stands while watching everyone watch his mother. Shock caused his mind to lock away some details until he could handle looking at them closely. I believe our eyes register many things that we are not actively conscious of at the time they happen, but the images can be recalled with the right stimulus.

[Mistermoonlight]

Hi folks. I'm feverishly reading, trying to get a little further along with chapter 3 before we start. I'm about halfway through with it. These are long chapters!

[gilmorefanalways]

They def are long chapters moon, currently i am a couple pages from chapter three I'm at the part where john ifs returning the baseball cards, this situation is very meaningful

[AntiArbitrator]

Whew! I made it - 6:00.

The Angel

I think Owen felt many things for Tabby including admiration, adoration and protectiveness. He would always defend her whether it was her morals or defend her from the Angel of Death. I think Owen was very brave to remain in Tabby’s bed since he believed it was the Angel of Death who had visited. I suppose believing in fate and predestination could make one’s life simpler if one has a positive attitude. Owen’s strong faith was never weakened by his best friend’s doubts.

The “wailing like a banshee” conversation revealed several things to me. Owen always knew what he was talking about and he intended his words to be taken literally. Although it took many years for John to understand that, he did learn to see that Owen was divine. I can tell that Dan continued to admire Owen’s brilliance, but I do not think he saw Owen as special in the sense that John did. Dan referred to Owen as “brilliant but preposterous.” I do not think Owen was “preposterous.”

It just occurred to me that Owen was always aware that Tabby's days were numbered. At her wedding, when the hail was battering everything, Owen was upstairs with his arm held protectively around the waist of the dummy. He was searching the sky - probably for a sign. It must have been a relief and a joy to accept Tabby's invitation to ride with her.

I don’t know at what age Owen died, but he probably died young like the two boys who were at bat before him.

The story telling style is interesting to me. Irving lets us know early on the most important fact of the story, but he teases us about things I see as less important. He tells us that Tabby never revealed to John the name of his father, but he indicates that the father is known. He teases us about the length of Dan’s and Tabby’s courtship and I wonder if a reason for the long courtship is ever given. His remarks about Americans and history might be true. I could not focus on the historical references and scanned them at a rapid pace.

[Mistermoonlight]

While reading Owen's scene in the bedroom with Tabby it occurred to me that she was really the only mother he had, since his parents didn't really care, and that a chance to spend the night in her arms must have been wonderful to him--to have someone hold him that way, and call him an angel, especially after that hilarious (to us) scene with Mrs. Wheelwright screaming 'like a banshee.'

In regards to Owen's faith, I love the line "on the subject of predestination, Owen Meany would accuse Calvin of bad faith."

[Watchtower]

I will admit, I have not been able to read chapter three. I will sit this chapter out and read chapter 3 and 4 this week. I've been either very busy or dealing with some migraines. I haven't had the chance to actually have some quiet time to read this week. Sorry.

[Mistermoonlight]

That's ok, Chloe. Feel free to join in with anything from the parts you've read so far, if you feel like it. Doesn't have to be chapter three.

I love that Owen detests Rector Wiggin's wife Barb so much that he encourages Dan Needham to cast her in a play as 'a prostitute or child molester.'

And that scene in the wedding with the two pastors reading scripture made me think of "Dueling Banjos" being done with Bible verses.

[gilmorefanalways]

Its interesting to me the ritual of giving their treasured items to eachother as means of communication through that difficult time, this scene is symbolic to me in this way, when people give their love usually its with some no matter how small expectation of receiving love or some affection in return however like Owen did in thenovel hwhen he maimed the armadillo causing it to be unable to stand, this symbolized the way often when in love the way ones feelings are at risk of being marred and often are.also with the way Owen removed the claws it left the armadillo defenseless the same asmany are rendered when loving someone they are defenseless to anything they may do that may cause your feelings harm. The way Owen returned the armadillo not completely the way it was when received is the same way we love you are never the same as you were going into the relationshipthere are many times the relationship takes from you and leaves you emotionally crippled but sometimes rarely you have a relationship that takes something you thought you needed to protect yourself and (armadillos claws are symbolic of this) be it some defense mechanism you created to keep yourself from any more emotional harm said relationship takes that defense away from you in order to show how much they would give of themself to keep you from needing that, the way Owen shows that he'd cut of his hands for Johnny

[gilmorefanalways]

Off

[Mistermoonlight]

Really good insight there, Jen.

I saw an article about giving the other day online and can't find it now, but it was a mother talking to her daughter about giving some of her things to kids that didn't have much this Christmas. The daughter picked out a bunch of stuff that she didn't care about any more. Her mother told her something that really struck me. She said that if it isn't something that's important to you, it's not really giving.

I think she's right. And I think this is what we saw with Owen and John. Thank goodness for the wisdom of Dan Needham. Even I might not have realized that the baseball cards were something Owen wanted back. It showed not only how sorry he was, but also how much he trusted John.

[gilmorefanalways]

I'm also glad for dan because in the same situation i wouldn't have know to give them back either I'm glad for people like dan who can see more than what's merely put before the eyes

[gilmorefanalways]

That is interesting what you wrote about the woman saying but for me i believe giving is giving. Everyone needs things even the excess that we no longer find interesting.

[gilmorefanalways]

Something curious I've been thinking of...
What could that title possibly mean?
Perhaps, I thought as I am sure something happens to Owen, Owen could have asked John to say a prayer for him as he passed away and thus inspired the title

What does that title mean to you?

[AntiArbitrator]

Dec 30, 2012 1:51:03 GMT -5 gilmorefanalways said:

Something curious I've been thinking of...
What could that title possibly mean?
Perhaps, I thought as I am sure something happens to Owen, Owen could have asked John to say a prayer for him as he passed away and thus inspired the title

What does that title mean to you?

I wondered about the title also. In a past life, I would say, mischievously, that I would say a prayer for someone because they were messing up so badly that they were going straight to Hell. MisterMoonlight let us know that was not the case with Owen Meany.

My best guess is that Owen spent his life guiding John toward a spiritual path and teaching him that faith is not an "intellectual" endeavor. I think John took Owen for granted and never thought about the fact that Owen might need some spiritual support himself. Perhaps in hindsight John realized this and it was an important revelation for him that maybe, just maybe, Owen needed someone to pray for him too.

I hope that makes sense.

[Mistermoonlight]

I can tell you this: you will know the answer to what that title means by the end of the book.

[AntiArbitrator]

Dec 30, 2012 18:24:11 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

I can tell you this: you will know the answer to what that title means by the end of the book.

You could pretend to be extremely intuitive and tell us now.