A Prayer for Owen Meany by John Irving- DISCUSSION

[Mistermoonlight]

Dec 30, 2012 22:30:22 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Dec 30, 2012 18:24:11 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

I can tell you this: you will know the answer to what that title means by the end of the book.

You could pretend to be extremely intuitive and tell us now.

Who needs to pray for a boy who escaped with Hester's panties and got to ride home with the newlyweds?

[gilmorefanalways]

Anti wonderful theory there i believe you are probably right on

[AntiArbitrator]

Dec 31, 2012 1:49:13 GMT -5 gilmorefanalways said:

Anti wonderful theory there i believe you are probably right on

Thank you, but I think MisterMoonlight is amused by my attempt to analyze the title. I wonder what Watchtower's interpretation is.

Dec 30, 2012 22:55:18 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

Dec 30, 2012 22:30:22 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

You could pretend to be extremely intuitive and tell us now.

Who needs to pray for a boy who escaped with Hester's panties and got to ride home with the newlyweds?

[gilmorefanalways]

Unfortunately I'm not that far into the novel yet to get the reference but I'm sure soon enough i will know and from the looks of it Owen has a very eventful life

[AntiArbitrator]

I am watching Hell on Wheels. An Irishman proposed to a lady, and her response was "You're Catholic, Sean. I am a Congregationalist Minister. I can't marry a papist."

If not for reading A Prayer for Owen Meany, I would not have a clue what she was talking about.

[Mistermoonlight]

Talk about perfect timing.

Of course, Owen Meany would say that there are no coincidences.

[AntiArbitrator]

You are right; it is perfect timing. I had never heard of Congregationalist, unless I thought they were saying "conversationalists".

[gilmorefanalways]

A family event that i am attending today has been moved to later in the day around three I'm unsure of how long it will go but i will still post tonight during our meeting however i may be unable to give my full thoughts until later this evening

[Mistermoonlight]

I'm happy to report that I finished chapter 4 yesterday, and am even a few pages into chapter 5 now. Looking forward to tonight's discussion.

One thing that strikes me as being interesting would be to compare and contrast the treatment of African American women as maids in this book and our previous read, The Help by Kathryn Stockett.

We'll see ya when you can make it here, Jen.

[AntiArbitrator]

Jan 5, 2013 15:24:02 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

I'm happy to report that I finished chapter 4 yesterday, and am even a few pages into chapter 5 now. Looking forward to tonight's discussion.

One thing that strikes me as being interesting would be to compare and contrast the treatment of African American women as maids in this book and our previous read, The Help by Kathryn Stockett.

We'll see ya when you can make it here, Jen.

I assumed the maids in this book were white. I don't know if I assumed that because the maid was treated like a family member after she was hurt or maybe because I never noticed a description of the maids.

[Mistermoonlight]

I bet you I got that from Simon Birch, the movie based on A Prayer for Owen Meany, not the book, come to think of it.

[AntiArbitrator]

Jan 5, 2013 16:15:10 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

I bet you I got that from the movie, not the book, come to think of it.

Not a problem. I think a comparison will be very interesting.

[Mistermoonlight]

As I've mentioned before, in The Help discussions, I was raised for a period of time by ladies we called 'housekeepers', not 'maids', who were mostly black women (although there was one very memorable white lady as well.)

I wonder if the Southern racists of my era ever knew what might unexpectedly (to them) happen as we white kids were put together with black ladies that we loved and who loved us back. They were like mamas to us.

But then again, thinking was never the racist's strong suit. They were all idiots in the first place.

[AntiArbitrator]

Jan 5, 2013 16:32:18 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

As I've mentioned before, in The Help discussions, I was raised for a period of time by ladies we called 'housekeepers', not 'maids', who were mostly black women (although there was one very memorable white lady as well.)

I wonder if the Southern racists of my era ever knew what might unexpectedly (to them) happen as we white kids were put together with black ladies that we loved and who loved us back. They were like mamas to us.

But then again, thinking was never the racist's strong suit. They were all idiots in the first place.

I don't think the racists ever imagined the children would grow to love and respect their black nannies. That respect, of course, led the children to see them as people rather than as objects. While reading The Help, I wondered what part the role of the maid/housekeeper/nanny played in white people being willing to risk their necks to help blacks during the Civil Rights movement.

[AntiArbitrator]

The Little Lord Jesus

While reading this chapter, the thought crept into my mind that Owen, himself, might be the Angel of Death. I don’t mean that in a horrifying or negative way, but as an instrument to cause something to happen. I was surprised to learn that Owen, once again, exhibited unusual power that led to another death. What can this mean? And he seemed to be the only one capable of finding the right words at the funeral although a minister was present.

In spite of that, I now think of Owen as “The Orchestrator”. Tabby was able to manipulate her environment to some extent, but Owen is a mastermind at manipulation and orchestration. Although Owen wanted a particular role, I think he was comfortable with trying to convince the mailman of the importance of that particular role because he somehow already knew the outcome of the conversation.

The events during the visit to Owen’s home seem to convey messages that I can only make a feeble attempt to understand. Did the nativity scene signify hopelessness? Was Mrs. Meany’s reaction to Owen’s participation in the play repressed anger at God for putting that unique individual in her womb?

Two phrases stuck and resonate with me: “Glory to the new born King!” and “and totally unaware that this orchestration would lead to a single sound.”(p.168)

[Mistermoonlight]

I think we have to look at this chapter literally. Owen is cast as 'The Little Lord Jesus' and he seems to know everything that is wrong with the Christmas production. Of course, mind you, he is going by the song 'Away in a Manger' not scripture, which I think shows that like all of us he is fallible.

But never fallible in his faith.

Still, Owen is portrayed as Christ-like.

I was born like Owen, knowing exactly who I was. My brother, by comparison, struggled for at least 30 years figuring this out for himself. I think that it is perhaps easier for the first-born or the only child, but then again we're faced with John Wheelwright who cannot know until he identifies his father. And so, like him, we wait.

I still don't think that Owen sees himself as the Angel of Death, even though that could be in following with his idea of being the instrument of God. He has undoubtedly had to struggle with those exact same thoughts, but I think he sees something higher than that. Or at least hopes for it.

[Mistermoonlight]

I also wanted to bring up the question of the treatment of maids in our previous book club selection The Help and our current one,A Prayer for Owen Meany.

In the movie based on A Prayer for Owen Meany, all of the maids in this era (1953) are shown as black, which makes Mrs. Wheelwright's treatment of Lydia much more humane. Lydia pretty much is given equal treatment as Mrs. Wheelwright, but I'd say she gets the funnier lines (Mrs. Wheelwright refers to Owens voice as like a mouse, Lydia refers to it as 'strangled mice.')

I would say that Mrs. Wheelwright elevates Lydia to almost her equal and enjoys her company as such. Although Lydia copies Mrs. Wheelwright to some degree, I don't think one could argue that Mrs. Wheelwright did not empower and love her. Just the simple fact that Mrs. Wheelwright hired two maids, one to take care of her, and one to take care of Lydia, shows a great difference in the treatment of maids in this story as opposed to The Help.

[AntiArbitrator]

MisterMoonlight, I am glad you shared the information about the maids’ race. Perhaps after reading The Help, I could not imagine Mrs. Wheelwright giving her black maid an elevated status. In The Help, Minny was smart-mouthed and it kept her in trouble with white employers, but I get the impression Lydia had the liberty to speak as she chose. The two maids who were hired were not rebuked for their clumsiness, and one maid surprised me by speaking up and saying Owen had the Devil’s voice. Some of the maids in The Help would have been punished for offering an opinion about a white person and they might have lost some wages for breaking dishes.

The whites in The Help treated their maids as somewhat less than themselves; therefore, I think it is very interesting that Mrs. Wheelwright used Lydia's illness as a barometer for her own development of dementia. That clearly shows me she saw no difference between the races.

[AntiArbitrator]

Jan 5, 2013 18:40:56 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

I think we have to look at this chapter literally. Owen is cast as 'The Little Lord Jesus' and he seems to know everything that is wrong with the Christmas production. Of course, mind you, he is going by the song 'Away in a Manger' not scripture, which I think shows that like all of us he is fallible.

But never fallible in his faith.

Still, Owen is portrayed as Christ-like.

Okay, I will take the story literally and that does make it easier for me. When I read the scene where Owen was suggesting changes, I did think he was manipulating the preacher’s wife both because he does not like her and because he did not want to be the angel. Owen’s self-assuredness in knowing what is to come does make me think of prophets and people are in awe of Owen. (Maybe I can say this better when I return. I am rushing my thoughts because I need to leave for a while.)

[Mistermoonlight]

Jan 5, 2013 20:54:16 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Jan 5, 2013 18:40:56 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

I think we have to look at this chapter literally. Owen is cast as 'The Little Lord Jesus' and he seems to know everything that is wrong with the Christmas production. Of course, mind you, he is going by the song 'Away in a Manger' not scripture, which I think shows that like all of us he is fallible.

But never fallible in his faith.

Still, Owen is portrayed as Christ-like.

Okay, I will take the story literally and that does make it easier for me. When I read the scene where Owen was suggesting changes, I did think he was manipulating the preacher’s wife both because he does not like her and because he did not want to be the angel. Owen’s self-assuredness in knowing what is to come does make me think of prophets and people are in awe of Owen. (Maybe I can say this better when I return. I am rushing my thoughts because I need to leave for a while.)

I'll amend that to say Christ-like, with the exception of comedy, which flavors this entire book. There's a serious lack of comedy in The Bible, if you ask me.

There must be an apocryphal book in the Bible that only our Jewish friends know, because they do so well with it.

[Mistermoonlight]

Jan 5, 2013 20:20:58 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

MisterMoonlight, I am glad you shared the information about the maids’ race. Perhaps after reading The Help, I could not imagine Mrs. Wheelwright giving her black maid an elevated status. In The Help, Minny was smart-mouthed and it kept her in trouble with white employers, but I get the impression Lydia had the liberty to speak as she chose. The two maids who were hired were not rebuked for their clumsiness, and one maid surprised me by speaking up and saying Owen had the Devil’s voice. Some of the maids in The Help would have been punished for offering an opinion about a white person and they might have lost some wages for breaking dishes.

The whites in The Help treated their maids as somewhat less than themselves; therefore, I think it is very interesting that Mrs. Wheelwright used Lydia's illness as a barometer for her own development of dementia. That clearly shows me she saw no difference between the races.

Mrs. Wheelwright astonishes me even more in my third reading of the book, and does so when I least expect it. Her generosity and respect for Lydia, as well as her sarcastic reception for for Owen at the end of the 4th chapter, underneath which seems to lie a certain admiration.

[AntiArbitrator]

Jan 5, 2013 21:24:51 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

Mrs. Wheelwright astonishes me even more in my third reading of the book, and does so when I least expect it. Her generosity and respect for Lydia, as well as her sarcastic reception for for Owen at the end of the 4th chapter, underneath which seems to lie a certain admiration to my mind.

I was delighted when Mrs. Wheelwright curtsied for Owen at the end of the chapter. I could visualize her doing that and Owen's bow in response was a nice touch. Perhaps, gaining the recognition and respect of Mrs. Wheelwright was as much an accomplishment for Owen as getting the part in the play. "Glory to the new born King" seems like an appropriate ending to that chapter.

I'll amend that to say Christ-like, with the exception of comedy, which flavors this entire book. There's a serious lack of comedy in The Bible, if you ask me.

There must be an apocryphal book in the Bible that only our Jewish friends know, because they do so well with it.

The story will seem to be on a very serious topic and suddenly the comedy appears. For instance, the misadventures of the maids or Mrs. Wheelwright trying to establish the pedigree of the man Tabby met on a train, and the scene with the fragile chairs plus the armadillo is inserted.

Your last statement went whoosh right over my head.

[gilmorefanalways]

For me although i can't explain why,i thought the maid was African American. I'm unsure what gave me this impression.

Some thoughts on the novel i thought the scene between Owen the grandmother and Tabitha was very interesting. I was impressed with Owens idea that he'd been reassigned the task, simply because it was a unique interpretation, as I'm sure has been stated Owen is a very unique boy I'm astounded by the things I'm coming to know about owen

[gilmorefanalways]

Jan 5, 2013 18:07:43 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Jan 5, 2013 16:32:18 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

As I've mentioned before, in The Help discussions, I was raised for a period of time by ladies we called 'housekeepers', not 'maids', who were mostly black women (although there was one very memorable white lady as well.)

I wonder if the Southern racists of my era ever knew what might unexpectedly (to them) happen as we white kids were put together with black ladies that we loved and who loved us back. They were like mamas to us.

But then again, thinking was never the racist's strong suit. They were all idiots in the first place.

I don't think the racists ever imagined the children would grow to love and respect their black nannies. That respect, of course, led the children to see them as people rather than as objects. While reading The Help, I wondered what part the role of the maid/housekeeper/nanny played in white people being willing to risk their necks to help blacks during the Civil Rights movement.

Anti its interesting you mention this as I've often pondered exactly what propelled some whites to speak out against racism and what withheld the others. I'm sure there are many reasons for this difference but i think as you have wisely pointed out perhaps this early association before the hatred was bred into many, stood out in some individuals mind thus making it somewhat easier later to speak out.

[gilmorefanalways]

Another interesting pointe i think Mrs wheelwright is too strong minded a character to let even the abounding racism determine how she treats her maids

[gilmorefanalways]

Jan 5, 2013 18:40:56 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

I think we have to look at this chapter literally. Owen is cast as 'The Little Lord Jesus' and he seems to know everything that is wrong with the Christmas production. Of course, mind you, he is going by the song 'Away in a Manger' not scripture, which I think shows that like all of us he is fallible.

But never fallible in his faith.

Still, Owen is portrayed as Christ-like.

I was born like Owen, knowing exactly who I was. My brother, by comparison, struggled for at least 30 years figuring this out for himself. I think that it is perhaps easier for the first-born or the only child, but then again we're faced with John Wheelwright who cannot know until he identifies his father. And so, like him, we wait.

I still don't think that Owen sees himself as the Angel of Death, even though that could be in following with his idea of being the instrument of God. He has undoubtedly had to struggle with those exact same thoughts, but I think he sees something higher than that. Or at least hopes for it.

moon that is a wonderful thing to know just who and what you are,i am the opposite I've also struggled with self doubt and uncertainty as to my purpose and so on but underneath all that I've always had an idea of who i am or at least who i want to be still with all that doubt you get a little lost. However mostly all my doubts originated from my younger years now that I'm older i know who i am .

[gilmorefanalways]

Jan 5, 2013 23:01:28 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Jan 5, 2013 21:24:51 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

Mrs. Wheelwright astonishes me even more in my third reading of the book, and does so when I least expect it. Her generosity and respect for Lydia, as well as her sarcastic reception for for Owen at the end of the 4th chapter, underneath which seems to lie a certain admiration to my mind.

I was delighted when Mrs. Wheelwright curtsied for Owen at the end of the chapter. I could visualize her doing that and Owen's bow in response was a nice touch. Perhaps, gaining the recognition and respect of Mrs. Wheelwright was as much an accomplishment for Owen as getting the part in the play. "Glory to the new born King" seems like an appropriate ending to that chapter.

I'll amend that to say Christ-like, with the exception of comedy, which flavors this entire book. There's a serious lack of comedy in The Bible, if you ask me.

There must be an apocryphal book in the Bible that only our Jewish friends know, because they do so well with it.

The story will seem to be on a very serious topic and suddenly the comedy appears. For instance, the misadventures of the maids or Mrs. Wheelwright trying to establish the pedigree of the man Tabby met on a train, and the scene with the fragile chairs plus the armadillo is inserted.

Your last statement went whoosh right over my head.

Anti ! i was hearing that whoosh sound too lol glad I'm in good company

[AntiArbitrator]

Jan 6, 2013 0:29:36 GMT -5 gilmorefanalways said:

Jan 5, 2013 23:01:28 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Your last statement went whoosh right over my head.

Anti ! i was hearing that whoosh sound too lol glad I'm in good company

I am looking forward to MisterMoonlight seeing our reaction to his statement.

[Watchtower]

I'm hearing that whoosh sound too.

Okay, so I did a bit of research. A friend of mine, who is Jewish, once told me that they only follow the old testament of the bible. They're still waiting on Jesus to come. While that is true, Jesus will come back, our Jewish friends believe that God never came down as Jesus (Although, when Jesus was born, he was Jewish.

I think Moon was being sarcastic as I do not think there is some 'apocryphal book' (unless he knows something I don't), that our Jewish friends follow. And of course the bible lacks comedy, it is God's book, God's Word, but that doesn't mean God doesn't have a sense of humor. My grandmother once said, "if God didn't have a sense of humor, people would not be humorous, and no, that does not mean God plays tricks on us."

Here is something about Judaism that I found to be very informative:
www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/beliefs/beliefs_1.shtml


I'm the first-born in my family, I was sure of who I was until the 4th grade and that would be when things went down-hill. My Grandmother used to read me the bible when I was younger, it's my very first memory as a child. I like to think it is because my Grandmother read me the bible when I was younger that I could so easily come back into my faith. But when everything went down-hill and my father, the Christian of the family, became an alcoholic and mentally abusive and stopped trying to get us to go to Church, I first became an atheist, I didn't believe at all, then at 15-16 years old, I started believing again that maybe there is a higher being, but I believed more into the science and the scientific method and such, Dad tried pushing the Christian religion on me (bad mistake)... then I told Dad that I believe in the Science of things. I became a born-again Christian, per my Grandmother's request right before going to college. But it wasn't until the second year of college, just before Christmas that I started to really believe again. While I still believe in the Science of things for the most part, I know there is a God.

[Mistermoonlight]

Sorry that I wasn't as clear as I wanted to be. I was just saying that since the Jewish faith has probably produced more famous comedians than any other, they must know a secret.

Jewish comedians include: Jon Stewart, Groucho Marx, Billy Crystal, Adam Sandler, Sarah Silverman, Jerry Seinfeld, Larry David, Woody Allen, Mel Brooks, Lenny Bruce, George Burns, Andy Samberg, Peter Sellers, Ben Stiller, Chelsea Handler, Jack Benny, Jack Black, Jerry Lewis, Seth Rogen, . . . and on and on, into infinity.