A Prayer for Owen Meany by John Irving- DISCUSSION

[AntiArbitrator]

Yes, she needs a Hilly pie. Plus, she left that poor child hanging in the rafters while she controlled the light on Owen and the exiting children. Dan is an awesome stepfather. He stood up to Barb and defused her rants about Owen.


Dan did something else I was proud of, but I can't think of it right now because my football team is now losing.

[Mistermoonlight]

I'm thinking now about fate and faith. I would argue that these are similar themes in both Dickens 'A Christmas Carol' and Irving's 'A Prayer for Owen Meany.

We see in 'A Christmas Carol' an argument against predestination, I think. That human choice can make a difference. I'm wondering at this point in the novel whether Owen thinks he has a choice, or is caught up in something bigger than himself, that he cannot control?

Indeed, does he even want to control it (as he does so much else)? Or does he see himself still as 'God's instrument'?

Is this Irving's equivalent to Jesus being tested in the desert by Satan?

If I remember correctly, Owen says that doubt is an important part of faith, just as Rev. Merril does.

[Mistermoonlight]

Jan 12, 2013 19:49:58 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Yes, she needs a Hilly pie. Plus, she left that poor child hanging in the rafters while she controlled the light on Owen and the exiting children. Dan is an awesome stepfather. He stood up to Barb and defused her rants about Owen.


Dan did something else I was proud of, but I can't think of it right now because my football team is now losing.

Just wait until you see Dan in the movie. He's the Dad we would all be lucky to have.

[gilmorefanalways]

Lol dan is def a hero that's what ive found myself thinkingothroughout this novel

[Mistermoonlight]

And I think we have a new euphemism here that no one else will know, except our beloved Book Club members:

"Hilly pie."

[AntiArbitrator]

Jan 12, 2013 20:00:33 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

And I think we have a new euphemism here that no one else will know, except our beloved Book Club members:

"Hilly pie."

You're right. I immediately knew what Jen meant by "Hilly pie", but others would not.

I hope we work out a synchro watch date for the movie.

[gilmorefanalways]

yay I'm glad for our new term, I'm sure I'll find plenty of use for it

I'm very excited for a synchro watch of this movie i have to restrain myself from renting it early lol

[AntiArbitrator]

Jan 12, 2013 19:55:27 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

I'm thinking now about fate and faith. I would argue that these are similar themes in both Dickens 'A Christmas Carol' and Irving's 'A Prayer for Owen Meany.

We see in 'A Christmas Carol' an argument against predestination, I think. That human choice can make a difference. I'm wondering at this point in the novel whether Owen thinks he has a choice, or is caught up in something bigger than himself, that he cannot control?

Indeed, does he even want to control it (as he does so much else)? Or does he see himself still as 'God's instrument'?

Is this Irving's equivalent to Jesus being tested in the desert by Satan?

If I remember correctly, Owen says that doubt is an important part of faith, just as Rev. Merril does.

These questions require a lot of thought. Sometimes, I think Owen is a fatalist and expects things to proceed in a preordained timeline. However, while playing the role of the ghost, the thought must have crossed his mind that our actions can affect the outcome. Thanks to Jen , I know he does attend the academy. I wonder how someone so young could care about education while accepting that his death is imminent.

Going by memory alone, I think Owen said the preacher who had so many doubts was in the wrong profession. (I will research that though after the game.)

[Mistermoonlight]

Here's the thought that strikes me. Can anyone actually be a hero without choice?

I think the lack of choice makes that impossible.

If heroism is about sacrifice, doesn't that in itself negate predestination?

[AntiArbitrator]

Well said, MisterMoonlight.

Owen seems to know the outcome of some events, but I should not think that means choice is absent. Owen is self-assured and makes decisions while displaying no doubts. That is a lot of power for a child.

Yes, I agree heroism requires choice.

[Mistermoonlight]

One of the things I love about this book is that it manages to subvert a traditional spiritual view (the Little Lord Jesus with an erection?) while creating something as powerful (or more) on a personal level.

[AntiArbitrator]

Owens criticism of doubt drew my attention because I thought everyone, at some time, had doubt. I have not yet seen Owen express doubt or be unsure of anything.

"Even when Gravesend Academy bestowed the intellectual honor upon Pastor Merrill--of inviting him to be a frequent guest preacher in the academy's non-denominational church--Owen was critical. "BELIEF IS NOT AN INTELLECTUAL MATTER," he complained. "IF HE'S GOT SO MUCH DOUBT, HE'S IN THE WRONG BUSINESS."

[AntiArbitrator]

Jan 12, 2013 21:48:14 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

One of the things I love about this book is that it manages to subvert a traditional spiritual view (the Little Lord Jesus with an erection?) while creating something as powerful (or more) on a personal level.

It does that very well.

[Mistermoonlight]

Jan 12, 2013 21:49:11 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Owens criticism of doubt drew my attention because I thought everyone, at some time, had doubt. I have not yet seen Owen express doubt or be unsure of anything.

"Even when Gravesend Academy bestowed the intellectual honor upon Pastor Merrill--of inviting him to be a frequent guest preacher in the academy's non-denominational church--Owen was critical. "BELIEF IS NOT AN INTELLECTUAL MATTER," he complained. "IF HE'S GOT SO MUCH DOUBT, HE'S IN THE WRONG BUSINESS."

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I could swear that somewhere in the book (perhaps later) Owen admits that doubt is an important part of faith. I'll keep looking.

Until then, assume that is wrong.

[gilmorefanalways]

Jan 12, 2013 20:42:27 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Jan 12, 2013 19:55:27 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

I'm thinking now about fate and faith. I would argue that these are similar themes in both Dickens 'A Christmas Carol' and Irving's 'A Prayer for Owen Meany.

We see in 'A Christmas Carol' an argument against predestination, I think. That human choice can make a difference. I'm wondering at this point in the novel whether Owen thinks he has a choice, or is caught up in something bigger than himself, that he cannot control?

Indeed, does he even want to control it (as he does so much else)? Or does he see himself still as 'God's instrument'?

Is this Irving's equivalent to Jesus being tested in the desert by Satan?

If I remember correctly, Owen says that doubt is an important part of faith, just as Rev. Merril does.

These questions require a lot of thought. Sometimes, I think Owen is a fatalist and expects things to proceed in a preordained timeline. However, while playing the role of the ghost, the thought must have crossed his mind that our actions can affect the outcome. Thanks to Jen , I know he does attend the academy. I wonder how someone so young could care about education while accepting that his death is imminent.

Going by memory alone, I think Owen said the preacher who had so many doubts was in the wrong profession. (I will research that though after the game.)

anti i am sorry more than sorry

[AntiArbitrator]

Jan 14, 2013 19:05:17 GMT -5 gilmorefanalways said:

anti i am sorry more than sorry

You should not be sorry because that will make me feel guilty for mentioning it. The smiley face means I was pleased to know he attended the academy. I had read part of the chapter but had not gotten that far. I don't mind if anyone mentions something that will happen later. For example, I stopped in to jot down something I don't want to forget during our next discussion.

I burst out laughing when John was sent to a psychiatrist because he was struggling with reading. Every school in my city would need a resident psychiatrist.

Mr. Merrill's humble comment about faith (p. 285)

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I could swear that somewhere in the book (perhaps later) Owen admits that doubt is an important part of faith. I'll keep looking.

Until then, assume that is wrong.

I think I will assume that is "right". Owen says "FAITH TAKES PRACTICE." so he will certainly say more later on.

[Mistermoonlight]

I am so happy to see such a lively discussion here on a book that means so much to me. Every time I see there's a new post I eagerly wait to see what has been written.

I'm listening to an interview John Irving did with BBC radio on the book, and here are the interesting parts:

1. Irving always begins writing with the last sentence of the novel, then works his way back.

2. He considered briefly giving all of Owen Meany's lines in the book red lettering, as you see in some versions of the Bible regarding the quotes of Jesus Christ. Turns out it was an expensive publishing prospect.

Plus it was too obvious a connection.

3. Irving said Owen is irritating to the other characters because he 'is right 90% of the time,' much like ancient prophets.

[AntiArbitrator]

Jan 15, 2013 3:03:48 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

I am so happy to see such a lively discussion here on a book that means so much to me. Every time I see there's a new post I eagerly wait to see what has been written.

I'm listening to an interview John Irving did with BBC radio on the book, and here are the interesting parts:

1. Irving always begins writing with the last sentence of the novel, then works his way back.

2. He considered briefly giving all of Owen Meany's lines in the book red lettering, as you see in some versions of the Bible regarding the quotes of Jesus Christ. Turns out it was an expensive publishing prospect.

Plus it was too obvious a connection.

3. Irving said Owen is irritating to the other characters because he 'is right 90% of the time,' much like ancient prophets.

I enjoy the extras you give us about the authors and the stories. Irving was clever to start with the ending because I have heard many authors get stuck on how to end a story.

I am glad he did not print Owen's words all in red. That would have had the critics screaming for both Irving's and Owens' heads. The CAPSLOCK was more subtle and in the beginning, I thought it represented a grating quality in Owens' voice. Then, I began to see it represents the importance of Owens' words. And finally, you drew a parallel to prophets.

Regarding #3, I see that Owen is irritating to those who would want to challenge him, but he is very popular with his peers. That is the one element of the story that still surprises me - his popularity with his peers and many adults. I view the compulsion to touch him differently than I view his popularity.

---

I want to mention again that I enjoy knowing what is coming. It will not spoil my enjoyment at all. My sister taught me that instead of rushing through a story to see how it ends, it is better to read the ending first and leisurely enjoy the story.

[Watchtower]

Jan 15, 2013 3:03:48 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

I am so happy to see such a lively discussion here on a book that means so much to me. Every time I see there's a new post I eagerly wait to see what has been written.

I'm listening to an interview John Irving did with BBC radio on the book, and here are the interesting parts:

1. Irving always begins writing with the last sentence of the novel, then works his way back.

2. He considered briefly giving all of Owen Meany's lines in the book red lettering, as you see in some versions of the Bible regarding the quotes of Jesus Christ. Turns out it was an expensive publishing prospect.

Plus it was too obvious a connection.

3. Irving said Owen is irritating to the other characters because he 'is right 90% of the time,' much like ancient prophets.

That is very interesting, thank you for sharing.

[avp60685]

*sighs*

I am so ashamed that I have fallen behind in my reading, I really need to start on it again soon!

[gilmorefanalways]

moon i too am glad for all the extras you share with us

[gilmorefanalways]

anti i like the idea of reading the ending first so you can enjoy the story i might try that in fact i will try that to see of i like that better. i have a bad habit of rushing through a book to get to the ending it makes me feel accomplished if i finish a book quickly, is that crazy? lol but i always feel like the ending is a surprise you have to work for by reading the rest of the book and i like to be surprised by the story along the way. i think thats what happened to me while reading the catcher in the rye i wanted to hurry and get to the end but thats a book you have to take your time and see the symbolism to completely understand the book

[AntiArbitrator]

Jen, I am glad you like the options that are available to us. I have also rushed through books to get to the ending. You and I both will reread books that we enjoy and that demonstrates that knowing how it ends does not detract from the pleasure of reading. The only type of book I would not tell anyone the ending to is a "who done it" novel, no matter how often they ask.

---

I remember now some of the comments that I wanted to make about Dan in addition to his handling of Barbara.

Dan was ridiculously funny when he explained the Dowling's childless state to John. "They were childless--Dan Needham suggested that their sexual roles might be so 'reversed' as to make childbearing difficult..."

I really admire Dan because, once again, he showed his compassionate nature when he made a lot of effort to ensure Mrs. Wheelwright did not remain home to brood on Christmas Eve. Even though she stubbornly refused each offer, he persevered until he finally persuaded her to leave the house.

---

MisterMoonlight, in "The Ghost of the Future," John said

"Owen had offered no explanation regarding the offense he took at his parents' attendance at the Christ Church Nativity. *** --by forgiving me for what I couldn't be expected to know, and what he would never explain to me: that old UNSPEAKABLE OUTRAGE that the Catholics had perpetrated, and his parents' inability to rise above what amounted to the RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION they had suffered; yet it was my opinion that Owen was persecuting his parents. Why they accepted such persecution was a mystery to me."

I am very curious about why Owen acted the way he did and I must ask, MisterMoonlight, are we going to get to the end of the story without knowing why Owen ordered them out of the church?

[gilmorefanalways]

I do hope the issue with owens parents will be explained otherwise I'm afraid it will drive me crazy from not knowing

[Mistermoonlight]

Jan 15, 2013 9:37:00 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Jan 15, 2013 3:03:48 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

I am so happy to see such a lively discussion here on a book that means so much to me. Every time I see there's a new post I eagerly wait to see what has been written.

I'm listening to an interview John Irving did with BBC radio on the book, and here are the interesting parts:

1. Irving always begins writing with the last sentence of the novel, then works his way back.

2. He considered briefly giving all of Owen Meany's lines in the book red lettering, as you see in some versions of the Bible regarding the quotes of Jesus Christ. Turns out it was an expensive publishing prospect.

Plus it was too obvious a connection.

3. Irving said Owen is irritating to the other characters because he 'is right 90% of the time,' much like ancient prophets.

I enjoy the extras you give us about the authors and the stories. Irving was clever to start with the ending because I have heard many authors get stuck on how to end a story.

I am glad he did not print Owen's words all in red. That would have had the critics screaming for both Irving's and Owens' heads. The CAPSLOCK was more subtle and in the beginning, I thought it represented a grating quality in Owens' voice. Then, I began to see it represents the importance of Owens' words. And finally, you drew a parallel to prophets.

Regarding #3, I see that Owen is irritating to those who would want to challenge him, but he is very popular with his peers. That is the one element of the story that still surprises me - his popularity with his peers and many adults. I view the compulsion to touch him differently than I view his popularity.

---

I want to mention again that I enjoy knowing what is coming. It will not spoil my enjoyment at all. My sister taught me that instead of rushing through a story to see how it ends, it is better to read the ending first and leisurely enjoy the story.

You are right in your first assessment of the reason for Owen's voice being in all caps. The later one I think is true as well.
.
John Irving said in response to another question (after the red dialogue statement) that he knew he had to make Owen's voice stand out (a quality important later on in the novel), so he decided on the caps.

He also reports that he did a lot of research on the effects of living in a granite quarry on the vocal cords and found that it can be significant. In the end, it is for this reason that he chose to represent Owen's ('ruined') voice that way.

Like me, Irving is not a religious person, however the literary question he decided to confront in this novel is "what would it take for me to believe?"

The answer was Owen Meany.

I can't disagree with your reasoning on reading the end first, because one of my dearest friends, who has a Ph.D in theater does the same thing.

However, I can tell you that for me that just doesn't work. The dramatic structure of any novel, short story, or movie is that it uses tools to build to a climax. By reading the conclusion of a story first, to me, you lose a large part of the dramatic experience.

To have read Hemingway's classic end to what I think to be the best short story ever written, "The Snows of Kilamanjaro," would be to rob it of everything that went before to bring you to the singular moment at the end.

Likewise, I believe that to read the end of A Prayer for Owen Meany first would be to miss out on an amazing experience.

But, to each his own.

[Mistermoonlight]

Jan 15, 2013 17:25:19 GMT -5 AntiArbitrator said:

Jen, I am glad you like the options that are available to us. I have also rushed through books to get to the ending. You and I both will reread books that we enjoy and that demonstrates that knowing how it ends does not detract from the pleasure of reading. The only type of book I would not tell anyone the ending to is a "who done it" novel, no matter how often they ask.

---

I remember now some of the comments that I wanted to make about Dan in addition to his handling of Barbara.

Dan was ridiculously funny when he explained the Dowling's childless state to John. "They were childless--Dan Needham suggested that their sexual roles might be so 'reversed' as to make childbearing difficult..."

I really admire Dan because, once again, he showed his compassionate nature when he made a lot of effort to ensure Mrs. Wheelwright did not remain home to brood on Christmas Eve. Even though she stubbornly refused each offer, he persevered until he finally persuaded her to leave the house.

---

MisterMoonlight, in "The Ghost of the Future," John said

"Owen had offered no explanation regarding the offense he took at his parents' attendance at the Christ Church Nativity. *** --by forgiving me for what I couldn't be expected to know, and what he would never explain to me: that old UNSPEAKABLE OUTRAGE that the Catholics had perpetrated, and his parents' inability to rise above what amounted to the RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION they had suffered; yet it was my opinion that Owen was persecuting his parents. Why they accepted such persecution was a mystery to me."

I am very curious about why Owen acted the way he did and I must ask, MisterMoonlight, are we going to get to the end of the story without knowing why Owen ordered them out of the church?

I don't know that we get an answer to that question, and that's due to the fact that I just don't remember.

What we do know at this point is that Owen feels his parents have been treated terribly by the Catholic Church, for some reason, and that he behaves badly towards them at the Christmas pageant, telling them that "THEY DON'T BELONG HERE."

Perhaps we'll figure out why along the way.

[AntiArbitrator]

Some more random thoughts from The Ghost of the Future

Jan 12, 2013 21:48:14 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

One of the things I love about this book is that it manages to subvert a traditional spiritual view (the Little Lord Jesus with an erection?) while creating something as powerful (or more) on a personal level.

Another bit of humor was when Mary Beth was overcome, she prostrated herself by actually putting her head in Baby Jesus’ lap. Poor Baby Jesus – first Barbara, then Mary Beth.

Rev. Merrill’s children are undisciplined brats. I often heard that the pastor’s children are the worse ones when it comes to discipline. I guess that happens because no one wants to offend the pastor by admonishing his child. The Merrills seem to be able to tune out the children, but I have never been able to do that, darn it.

I am interested in John’s revelation that he might be able to isolate his father by studying the theater patrons. That was a novel concept and he he had no way of knowing if the person Tabby waved to would come to the theater.

Will the discussion time need to be adjusted based on MisterMoonlight's schedule?

P.S. I have no inclination to read the ending to this book out of sequence.

[Mistermoonlight]

Thankfully no, for I am off on Saturday.

I once had a friend who was a PK (preacher's kid) and he certainly lived up to the legend. His name was distinctive: Marty Martin.

Chapter 6 is an especially long chapter, so I urge anyone who's not begun yet to start. I still have 40 pages to go myself.

[AntiArbitrator]

MisterMoonlight

I have read The Voice chapter and I am reading ahead in The Dream. The story has become too interesting for me to wait. These are long chapters, but that makes it easier for me to synchro discuss than the thousand short chapters in The Help. The chapter titles are significant and help me to focus.

[Mistermoonlight]

Glad to hear that the book has captured you, Anti. It was the same with me the first time I read it. By the final third of the book I found myself purposely setting limits on how much I'd allow myself to read in a night so that I could stretch out my time with it longer. I didn't want this novel to end. That's how much it hooked me.

And I agree about the chapter titles. Each one is honed as finely as a slab of Meany granite, capturing the essence and focus of the chapter.

As I'm finishing up chapter six "The Voice" today (just 13 more pages to go!) I saw this line where the adult John speculates about a girl in the literature class he teaches, "I suspect that Claire Clooney is too clever for an error of this magnitude; that, yesterday, she had not read past Chapter One; and that, today--by her ploy of distracting me with the news--she was not finished with Chapter Four."

It seemed designed as a meta-message to me as an Evicted Book Club member, urging me to finish chapter six completely before Saturday night's discussion.

UPDATE: I have finished chapter six!