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Post by gilmorefanalways on Jan 19, 2013 19:43:12 GMT -5
Which brings me to a conclusion with the way Owen is seeing everything more clearly than others makes me wonder if him seeing his own name on the headstone mean something as well
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Post by AntiArbitrator on Jan 19, 2013 19:46:11 GMT -5
Which brings me to a conclusion with the way Owen is seeing everything more clearly than others makes me wonder if him seeing his own name on the headstone mean something as well |
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Mistermoonlight
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Post by Mistermoonlight on Jan 19, 2013 19:46:16 GMT -5
What do we make of the fact that the adult John sees Ronald Reagan as a villain and that the adolescent Owen sees John Kennedy as a peer (even though, he is, of horrors, a catholic)?
I would offer that it is the perception of truth. Both were victims of assassination attempts, only one of which was successfull.
In his time, JFK was not troubled with the taint that followed later presidents.
I would say that as we go further, consider the possibility that John's negative regard for Ronald Reagan may be actually misplaced anger in regards to the Viet Nam war.
That, and the fact that, unlike politicians, Owen Meany almost never would lie.
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Mistermoonlight
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Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
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Post by Mistermoonlight on Jan 19, 2013 19:49:19 GMT -5
Which brings me to a conclusion with the way Owen is seeing everything more clearly than others makes me wonder if him seeing his own name on the headstone mean something as well It definitely means something. However, that has not been revealed to us yet. |
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Post by gilmorefanalways on Jan 19, 2013 19:52:06 GMT -5
I was picking up on some of that concerning John he was so angry I felt there had to be more behind it
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Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
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Post by Mistermoonlight on Jan 19, 2013 19:56:59 GMT -5
Which brings me to a conclusion with the way Owen is seeing everything more clearly than others makes me wonder if him seeing his own name on the headstone mean something as well Is this a further lesson that Owen believes his life has a fate and a purpose? |
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Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
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Post by Mistermoonlight on Jan 19, 2013 20:00:21 GMT -5
I was picking up on some of that concerning John he was so angry I felt there had to be more behind it Yes, you're right, John is angry. We'll find out in the next chapter why. |
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Post by AntiArbitrator on Jan 19, 2013 20:03:21 GMT -5
I remember that both Kennedy and Reagan were popular and the people loved them both. I do believe John's anger toward Reagan is based on the war. It seems the war had something to do with John being in Canada, but I am uncertain of the timeline.
I think Owen overlooked Kennedy being Catholic because he admired the qualities he saw in Kennedy. In spite of that, Owen continued to carry a grudge against the Catholic Church, nuns, and religious statues.
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Post by gilmorefanalways on Jan 19, 2013 20:09:54 GMT -5
I figured it was foreshadowing but with the added factor of him seeing that before anyone else just I guessconfirmed my theorys concerning Owens future
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Post by AntiArbitrator on Jan 19, 2013 20:15:12 GMT -5
Your post reminded me of something. I believe Owen was thinking about his imminent death when he would claim the illness he saw in the movies-the brain tumor that Bette Davis had in Dark Victory. Is this a further lesson that Owen believes his life has a fate and a purpose?
There is so much to discuss in this chapter that two hours seemed like a brief time. Something else that interested me:
Owen began to demonstrate more respect for Mr. Merrill’s philosophy on doubt+faith. I kept nodding my head in agreement when the Rev. Mr. Merrill said
“What no person has a right to is to delude others into the belief that faith is something of no great significance, or that it is an easy matter, whereas it is the greatest and most difficult of all things.” |
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Post by gilmorefanalways on Jan 19, 2013 20:20:18 GMT -5
Anti I agree Owen saw the good over the bad. This is also something we read in the Bible about God seeing the good in people and focusing on that instead of the undesirable qualities this also confirms our earlier speculations on Owens godly characteristics
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Post by AntiArbitrator on Jan 19, 2013 20:32:53 GMT -5
I agree Owen has good character and he also has a sense of humor. His humor is not talked about much but he does exhibit humor. That is part of his humanity. On the lighter side of Owen, I can’t help laughing at the “LUST CONNECTION”. “EVERY TIME YOU GET A BONER, TRY TO THINK IF YOU REMIND YOURSELF OF ANYONE YOU KNOW.” That kept me in stitches for days.
Honestly, I can remember young people giving advice to each other about life that seems ridiculous as we get older.
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Post by gilmorefanalways on Jan 19, 2013 20:38:29 GMT -5
I reread that sentence over and over lol
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Post by gilmorefanalways on Jan 19, 2013 20:43:29 GMT -5
Chloe I wanted to say its good seeing you here and reading your posts about the novel
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Post by gilmorefanalways on Jan 19, 2013 20:44:13 GMT -5
I wonder what happened to moon
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Post by AntiArbitrator on Jan 19, 2013 20:48:42 GMT -5
Probably dinner time or computer issues. I noticed his computer was repeating posts.
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Post by gilmorefanalways on Jan 19, 2013 20:49:42 GMT -5
Ive been having issues with this site today
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Post by gilmorefanalways on Jan 19, 2013 20:50:37 GMT -5
What did you think of hesters affair with the boatman
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Post by gilmorefanalways on Jan 19, 2013 20:52:38 GMT -5
And what doyou make of Johns attraction to her and do you think that maybe was the reason why he and Owen were never invited to Sawyer depot
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Post by AntiArbitrator on Jan 19, 2013 20:52:48 GMT -5
OMG, I know Hester is older than our boys, but she was wild. She seemed to do things just to shock her family. She was lucky nothing worse than a canceled vacation happened.
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Post by AntiArbitrator on Jan 19, 2013 20:57:41 GMT -5
Gosh, I think Owen knew John was interested in Hester, and I hope no one else knew, but I don't know for sure. The family probably did not want a non-family boy staying overnight because they could not trust Hester. Even if Owen was not interested, they still would not trust Hester. Remember the scene at the wedding when the adults could tell Hester had lost her underwear? They probably thought she was misbehaving.  Edit: It surprised me that John's interest in Hester was enduring even though he was exposed to other girls at middle school and on the beach. Hester seemed to be his model for sexuality. I don't really know what to make of that.
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Post by AntiArbitrator on Jan 19, 2013 21:01:19 GMT -5
Something that surprised me is that Mrs. Wheelwright did not buy John the same quality clothes that she bought for Owen. I think it’s a good thing John and Owen are best friends because the shopping spree for Owen could have caused jealousy. Owen had a personal tuxedo while John had a rented one.
If they were girls, the fight would never end.
Did that strike you as odd?
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Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
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Post by Mistermoonlight on Jan 19, 2013 21:32:06 GMT -5
I wonder what happened to moon Sorry. I had a friend of mine drop over for a visit unexpectedly. Back now, although I think I'm not too far from hitting the hay. |
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Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
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Post by Mistermoonlight on Jan 19, 2013 21:35:25 GMT -5
Something that surprised me is that Mrs. Wheelwright did not buy John the same quality clothes that she bought for Owen. I think it’s a good thing John and Owen are best friends because the shopping spree for Owen could have caused jealousy. Owen had a personal tuxedo while John had a rented one.
If they were girls, the fight would never end.
Did that strike you as odd? I don't think it mattered to John, but I'm betting you're right that it would be different with girls. One of Owen's biggest achievements in this chapter is the turnaround in his relationship with John's grandmother, if you ask me. |
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Mistermoonlight
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Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
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Post by Mistermoonlight on Jan 20, 2013 12:49:41 GMT -5
I agree Owen has good character and he also has a sense of humor. His humor is not talked about much but he does exhibit humor. That is part of his humanity. On the lighter side of Owen, I can’t help laughing at the “LUST CONNECTION”. “EVERY TIME YOU GET A BONER, TRY TO THINK IF YOU REMIND YOURSELF OF ANYONE YOU KNOW.” That kept me in stitches for days.
Honestly, I can remember young people giving advice to each other about life that seems ridiculous as we get older. This, if you ask me, is the perfect example of how guys think at Owen and John's age. It's taught with the newfound experience of sexuality as a revolution in how we see things. Sexuality as religious experience I think is no way better expressed than in the works of Leonard Cohen: Doesn't the line 'you needed proof' resound towards what we've seen in Owen's growth in accepting proof ( a la Rev. Merrril ) as an element of faith during this chapter? |
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Post by AntiArbitrator on Jan 20, 2013 12:53:24 GMT -5
Something that surprised me is that Mrs. Wheelwright did not buy John the same quality clothes that she bought for Owen. I think it’s a good thing John and Owen are best friends because the shopping spree for Owen could have caused jealousy. Owen had a personal tuxedo while John had a rented one.
If they were girls, the fight would never end.
Did that strike you as odd? I don't think it mattered to John, but I'm betting you're right that it would be different with girls. One of Owen's biggest achievements in this chapter is the turnaround in his relationship with John's grandmother, if you ask me. |
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Post by AntiArbitrator on Jan 20, 2013 13:14:35 GMT -5
I agree Owen has good character and he also has a sense of humor. His humor is not talked about much but he does exhibit humor. That is part of his humanity. On the lighter side of Owen, I can’t help laughing at the “LUST CONNECTION”. “EVERY TIME YOU GET A BONER, TRY TO THINK IF YOU REMIND YOURSELF OF ANYONE YOU KNOW.” That kept me in stitches for days.
Honestly, I can remember young people giving advice to each other about life that seems ridiculous as we get older. This, if you ask me, is the perfect example of how guys think at Owen and John's age. It's taught with the newfound experience of sexuality as a revolution in how we see things. Sexuality as religious experience I think is no way better expressed than in the works of Leonard Cohen: Doesn't the line 'you needed proof' resound towards what we've seen in Owen's growth in accepting proof ( a la Rev. Merrril ) as an element of faith during this chapter? |
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Mistermoonlight
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Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
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Post by Mistermoonlight on Jan 20, 2013 13:15:29 GMT -5
If Leonard Cohen and John Irving were ever to work on a project together I wonder if it wouldn't be amazing? These are two similar souls, even though Irving's lack of religious belief is juxtaposed here with a belief in the possibility that Cohen espouses.
Irving has shown himself as open to creating the circumstances in which he himself would be able to believe, and he does that, much as Leonard Cohen does, through art.
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Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
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Post by Mistermoonlight on Jan 20, 2013 13:40:46 GMT -5
This, if you ask me, is the perfect example of how guys think at Owen and John's age. It's taught with the newfound experience of sexuality as a revolution in how we see things. Sexuality as religious experience I think is no way better expressed than in the works of Leonard Cohen: Doesn't the line 'you needed proof' resound towards what we've seen in Owen's growth in accepting proof ( a la Rev. Merrril ) as an element of faith during this chapter? I am always glad for the moments of insight that come from art. I think we'll all be discovering new things from both of these works in years to come. For me, the true feedom comes in terms of being open to the amazing. I think it's always there, waiting for us. How can any of us truly live without a sense of wonder? |
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Post by AntiArbitrator on Jan 20, 2013 14:06:35 GMT -5
I enjoyed the song and the simplicity used to deliver the message. On a personal note, I think I continue to enjoy each day and am never bored because I have not lost that sense of wonder.
As I was listening, I had a sense of wonder at how, during each of our discussions, I see another way of interpreting "Hallelujah". I will see it one way, then next time, I interpret it another way. Will it never end?
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