Re: The Castiel Skeptics Society

[chloekins]

Feb 18, 2012 8:11:56 GMT -5 shadowhund said:

Feb 18, 2012 7:54:56 GMT -5 chloekins said:

Thank You Shadow!!!

Hi chloe, I just needed 30 minutes to find the right words , and I even don't know whether they are the right words!!! Ha ha!!!

Its like the personal space, Dean demanded (once upon a time), and this is internet where we meet each other to a certain degree, without really knowing each other personally. There are fun threads and there are threads which are simply to vent and/or to discuss in a critical manner some storylines regarding SPN and around this supernatural creature (and not to forget the appreciation threads for the diiferent characters) And of course this includes a critical view at Dean and Sam while they are around the creature!

PS: And I just noticed that I can't see "yellow" on white, not good. I should have chosen another color!

The yellow is a challenge to read but it was worth it. This thread has gotten way off track with the non-skeptics coming in mucking it up. There's other threads they can use to be silly. This one is for discussing our Cas-dislike.

[Aeryn]

Feb 18, 2012 7:43:02 GMT -5 shadowhund said:

I want to request people who like the character of Castiel and want Dean to be BFF and vica verde and who think that this character contributes to the series to stay out of this thread!


People who think to make fun of us skeptics or scatter the original intent of this thread. People from the internet might come to read some interesting comments, critical comments and what they find are posters insulting other posters here, because of a unknown history with each other.


I think it should stay a save haven for people who dislike the character, dislike the sexual innuendos between Dean and Castiel, dislike how Dean is around this creature!

And I think this privileg doesn't only belong to "Samfans" also to "Deanfans" and fans of SPN!!

I respect also the Castiel-Fan-Club and don't post there! As much I respect that I want people to respect this thread too!!!

I completely agree with you, shadow. And I respect how you feel about the matter. Skeptics have a right to insult Castiel as much as they want...that's what this thread is for, of course.

However, when someone starts insulting anyone who doesn't agree with their views, there's going to be problems. And that's when things get out of hand.

So, if people want to talk about how much they dislike Castiel, that's all well and good. But if those same people start making nasty remarks about those of a differing opinion...well, shit's gonna happen.

And for the record, I pretty much like everyone here. I don't care whether you're a Skeptic or Cas fan. If you're cool with me, I'm cool with you.

Peace. :heart:

[CaptainBill]

Feb 17, 2012 14:33:53 GMT -5 ravanne said:

I wanted to take a momen to address this since those of us who don't like Castiel often take a lot of heat for being critical of Dean's actions. Given how tightly intertwined Dean's storyline has been with Castiel for three seasons, it's nearly impossible to discuss the problems that Castiel has caused without an examination (often a critical one) of Dean's actions as well. Like it or not, you cannot seperate the two and it was Dean that allowed some of Castiel's worst abuses by not being critical or suspicious enough. All though season 4, Castiel would tell Dean something and Dean for the most part accepted it without question. When Castiel told Dean that Sam was on a dark path, Dean accepted that as gospel (since it was coming from an angel, it had to be true) and Dean turned antagonistic and suspicious regarding his brother. He didn't know or care about the reasons for Sam's behavior. He only took Castiel's word that Sam was up to no good and all but drove Sam tighter into Ruby's grasp.

In season 6, Dean missed a great deal about what Castiel was really up to because he couldn't bring himself to believe that Castiel could be up to no good. Even when Bobby and Sam gave ample reason to suspect that Castiel was working against them, Dean didn't want to believe them. Dean was so tied up with Castiel that he couldn't allow himself to even begin to suspect that Casitel was working with Crowley. If it was any other creature, Dean would have been much more alert to something not being kosher, but this was Castiel. Castiel had its hooks very deep in Dean and it used that influence to keep the Winchesters from catching on to what it was doing until it was much too late to stop its plans.

My biggest concern with Castiel (in whatever incarnation it comes back in) returning is that Dean will have that instinctive need to trust that his old "friend" is back. That he will forget that Castiel caused him and Sam so much harm and that Castiel will play upon that need to believe that his friend was back. Castiel had been able to turn Dean against Sam before, and it seems very possible that it will attempt to do the very same now that Sam is so vulnerable. When it comes to recognizing Castiel's lies and manipulations, Dean has an extremely poor track record, and Sam tends to suffer as a result.

Ravanne, I wish I was 1/100 as articulate as you! The downgrading of Dean's smarts and badass characteristics since season 4 nearly had me stop watching SPN couple of time due to the disintegration of the brotherhood bond. Dean, seriously?!?! But I kept watching because of the mega talent of Jared in his portrayal of Sam in spite of the writers' neglects, and I'm glad I did.

[1027phoenix]

Thank you Shadow, I agree completely. I have been avoiding this site because of this problem.
I know people don't like censorship. I don't eiher. But IMO all of the bashing here is killing this site.

[Mistermoonlight]

That's why we have Fight Club!

Give us a bit of time and we will move the posts that need to be in Fight Club there.

[ravanne]

Feb 17, 2012 20:30:13 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

taking both interviews into consideration, my feeling is that upon seeing cas alive, there's a sense of relief where dean's guilt complex is concerned. for whatever reason, dean feels guilty about castiel's death. hell, the boy feels guilt over things that aren't even his fault. so i think, that the feeling of 'conflict' could be over dean feeling a sense of relief (or lessening of guilt) at seeing castiel alive, but still beyond pissed and distrusting of him. in 7.02, dean wasn't looking to reconnect with cas. in fact, he was uber pissed and turned a cold shoulder to him.

i think dean may use cas to heal sam, the way cas used the boys to achieve his own goals. of course, thats all dependant on whether cas is really cas.

For the life of me, I have no clue why Dean should feel at all guilty over what became of Castiel. I can understand him feeling regret that things ended the way they did, regret that he didn't recognize what Castiel had done in time to prevent Castiel from hurting Sam and causing the death and distruction that it caused. But guilt? As if Dean was somehow responsible for Castiel's actions? No way. Dean has plenty to justifiably feel guilty about, but Castiel is not one of them.

I think a lot of viewers make several mistakes when it comes to recognizing what Castiel actually is. First because Castiel is an angel, many viewers are more likely to want to believe that if Castiel's actions aren't righteous ones, that they at least come from a place of wanting to do the moral and right thing. But the show had been very clear that the angels as a whole were not interested in doing the good things, and they as a whole were certainly not acting in the interest of mankind. They were focused on their own interests and humans as a whole - including the Winchesters - were nothing more than tools to be used. In their own way, the angels were at least as bad as the demons (possibly worse since the demons were at least honest about their motivations and not trying to paint them as being the righteous thing). But because of the religious upbringing of most people, they are naturally predisposed to viewing angels in a positive light, even if their actions would have been called evil if committed by a human or demon.

Castiel itself also gave the impression of being naive and completely unschooled about the ways of the world. But it's a mistake to assume that this impressions was actually the case. Castiel might not have knowledge about basic human social interactions, but it was supposedly a warrior of heaven. It would have an understanding of warfare and manipulation and processing of information. But some fans see this bumbling, innocent appearing creature and forget that behind that mask is a being that has lived for many, many centuries and saw the rise and fall of multiple human societies and fought many wars for heaven's interest. There is a huge difference between not knowing how to chat up women than there is in not knowing how to use and manipulate those around it.

Then we get to Castiel's physical form. Again, the body that Castiel choose - somewhat good looking and gentle appearing, with soft eyes and a quiet voice - gives the impression of being harmless and safe and trustworthy. But the body - Jimmie - is the least important aspect of Casitel. Castiel itself reminded us in TMWWBK about its true form, but again, the face that we associate with Castiel is that sweet-looking, gentle human one.

So what does this all mean? That it became easy to ignore the being that tried to coerce Dean into swearing loyalty to heaven when Sam's life was at stake. It allowed viewers to excuse its worst actions because it was so difficult to believe that this sweet-looking, benign appearing being could actually mean harm. It allowed people to want to believe that it was doing what it thought was the right thing, because how could this kind-appearing angel who always seemed to want to to what was right actually mean harm. Zachariah's vessel wasn't so kind appearing, so it was much easier to see it for the threat that it was. Raphael's form wasn't so gentle-appearing, so it was easy to see it as an enemy. But sweet, gentle-looking Castiel? It slipped past a lot of peoples radars. Dean's included.

Yet Castiel did cause harm. It caused immense harm. It killed and lied and manipulated and tortured - all to serve its own ends. The only difference between the Castiel in MTNB and the one we met back in Lazarus Rising is that it wasn't trying any longer to hide what it was capable of. The mask was gone.

Dean can kick himself a lot about what happened. He was mistaken to fall for the mask and not to recognize Castiel for the threat that it was all along. Dean should have remembered that the motives of something that isn't human should always been called into question. He should regret not trusting his own instincts, and those of his brother and Bobby sooner. But guilt that Castiel did what it did? That's not Dean's burden to carry.

[shadowhund]

*applause* No words I can't imagine one more word to clarify some important things regarding "the thing"!

[1027phoenix]

ravanne, this, "Dean can kick himself a lot about what happened. He was mistaken to fall for the mask and not to recognize Castiel for the threat that it was all along. Dean should have remembered that the motives of something that isn't human should always been called into question. He should regret not trusting his own instincts, and those of his brother and Bobby sooner. But guilt that Castiel did what it did? That's not Dean's burden to carry."

Perfectly put. It's hard for me to see why Dean feels guilty about Cas. If he forgives him after all the bad things Cas has done, I won't be able to forgive Dean. He should be able to see the truth which by now is blatantly obvious. Just because he doesn't want to believe it is no excuse. After all, Tessa tried to warn him.
Dean misplaced his trust in Castiel just as Sam misplaced his trust in Ruby. He shouldn't get a free pass since Sam didn't get one from Dean.
What I'd like to see is for Dean to hold Cas while Sam stabs him. Ruby in reverse so to speak. I want Cas gone for good. Killing him is the best way to assure that happens.

[Emmy88]

I love your post ravanne. :heart:

[ravanne]

I don't even know that Dean knows what he's feeling guilty about. And there's a huge difference between feeling guilty about something (which is not always based on rational fact) and being responsible for something. Dean was not Castiel's babysitter. It was not his place of job to oversee Castiel's behavior and order it to do or not to do things. Castiel was a sentient being with ability to learn and understand right from wrong. But like demons, angels have a very difference sense of what is right and wrong than a human will. For both angels and demons, right for them is futhering the interests of Heaven or Hell (respectively). Both have no compuction about killing or torturing or comitting any other act that humans would call evil.

In its time with Dean, Castiel had plenty of opportunity to learn what Dean thought was right and wrong. Unfortunately during the early stages of their association, Dean was taking his cues from Castiel. It was like taking obedience training from your dog. And by the time Dean did try to asert his beliefs, Castiel was already set on its plans and would not deviate. It knew that it was doing something Dean would not approve of, so it hid its actions, openly lied to Dean (and whoever believes that Castiel is incapable of lying convincingly apparently has been watching a different show from the rest of us) and worst of all, used Dean's brother in a manner that showed not only complete disregard for his mortal life, but his immortal soul.

The Castiel appologists like to harp on the idea that Dean owed Castiel for Castiel's sacrifices. That because Castiel turned on Heaven and was willing to sacrifice its life (and did get exploded by Samifer), Dean owed Castiel special consideration and should have forgiven it for its misdeeds. In my mind, Castiel was directly responsible for playing a huge role in pushing both Sam and Dean into setting Lucifer free, so playing a part in putting Lucifer back in his cage was something it owed the Winchesters. Castiel was the one that was under an obligation to help, not the other way around.

Dean's biggest mistake was in believing that Castiel's motives were the same as his own. Or that Castiel would respect human life and well-being, especially that of the mortals that it called its friends. But in the end, when freed of any constraints and no longer needing to pretend to be less than it was, Castiel revealed just how little regard it really had for Sam and Dean. At best, they were useful tools. At worst, utterly disposable. Mere ants and barely worth his notice at all.

In the end, Dean owes Castiel absolutely nothing short of an angel-killing blade through its throat. Whatever loyalty Castiel might have been able to claim in the past has been squandered and lost. Dean shouldn't lost a single wink of sleep more over now having to put it down.

[chloekins]

Feb 18, 2012 21:59:58 GMT -5 ravanne said:

I don't even know that Dean knows what he's feeling guilty about. And there's a huge difference between feeling guilty about something (which is not always based on rational fact) and being responsible for something. Dean was not Castiel's babysitter. It was not his place of job to oversee Castiel's behavior and order it to do or not to do things. Castiel was a sentient being with ability to learn and understand right from wrong. But like demons, angels have a very difference sense of what is right and wrong than a human will. For both angels and demons, right for them is futhering the interests of Heaven or Hell (respectively). Both have no compuction about killing or torturing or comitting any other act that humans would call evil.

I think Dean feels not so much guilt about what happened with Cas but responsibility. It's been his job to look after Sam his whole life plus he's added the rest of the world to that job. He failed to recognize what Cas really was and that's an epic failure for him. He also trusted him which was huge for Dean since he's never trusted anyone but Sam and Bobby. As he sees it because Dean failed the Leviathans were released into the world, Sam is losing his mind, Bobby died.

I think part of his depression is caused from him not trusted his own instincts anymore. He worries that he's lost the instinct that has kept him and Sam alive while they are hunting. I think that's why he killed Amy, better safe than sorry.

All season we've see him wallowing in self-pity and despair so why in hell would he even give a second to consider forgiving Cas? It doesn't gibe with his mindset that we've gotten all season. And even with what Jensen said about he and Sam's relationship with Cas, that has never been presented in the show. Jensen is a fabulous actor and can say volumes with his facial expressions, yet at no time have I ever seen Dean express the feelings Jensen said Dean supposedly has for Cas. Irritation, comaraderie, amusement, friendship perhaps, but only for a valued comrade who fights the same battle.

I hope we're being misled by what Jensen said and that Dean is merely using Cas hoping he can help to restore Sam's sanity plus with getting rid of the Leviathans. I hope Dean has no interest in forgiving the slimey bastard and we get that scene where he lets loose some righteous wrath on him and then kills him.

[chloekins]

I'm outta here. This place is a joke.

[Mistermoonlight]

Sorry about that, Chloekins. The inflammatory post was reported by a member and deleted fairly quickly. Just let us know when something like that happens.

[chloekins]

Feb 20, 2012 12:10:58 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

Sorry about that, Chloekins. The inflammatory post was reported by a member and deleted fairly quickly. Just let us know when something like that happens.

Thank you. In future I will. I was under the impression that the forum would be run very openly and unless posters were outright fighting the mods wouldn't step in. I'm glad that was wrong.

Upthread Shadow requested all non-Cas skeptics please stay out of this thread which was ignored. I repeat her request to respect the purpose of this thread and stay away if you are not a Cas skeptic.

[Mistermoonlight]

Yep, that post pretty well sets up the rules for this thread, and we'll ask folks to respect them. If they don't, just use the 'report to mod' button.

[Aeryn]

Feb 20, 2012 12:10:58 GMT -5 Mistermoonlight said:

Sorry about that, Chloekins. The inflammatory post was reported by a member and deleted fairly quickly. Just let us know when something like that happens.

Oh, for God's sake. If the post you're referring to was that picture of Castiel, I hardly consider that "inflammatory."

[Mistermoonlight]

You saw the rules for this thread.

If ya wanna fight, take it to Fight Club.

[Aeryn]

I wasn't fighting. I was trying to inject some humor into this thread.

[Mistermoonlight]

[Aeryn]

Yoda? You're actually using a fucking Yoda reference?

You dork.

[Mistermoonlight]

In comedy there is also no 'try.'

There is only funny or not.

[Aeryn]

I think your alloted time on the soapbox has expired.

[Mistermoonlight]

I just put a quarter in the meter and got another 15 minutes!



Disclaimer: I'm not a Supernatural viewer, so I don't take any sides in the fandom. But I did see this, and it seems both pretty funny and appropriate here.

Update: even though the funny poster was in keeping with the spirit of this thread, I decided to remove it. Like I said, I'm not on either side of the issue, so my posts should always reflect that.

[Mistermoonlight]

This is a thread for Castiel Skeptics. It's been requested that non-skeptics stay out, and we will honor that. So any further such posts will be moved to the Fight Club.

[Aeryn]

I've always posted on both the CSS and the CFC. That's not going to change.

[Watchtower]

That's fine... just keep things appropriate in each thread or take it to the Fight Club! Simple as that!

[zenezie]

Okay, I read in another board that Jeffry behaved like Castiel; acted meek and harmless and successfully got into Dean’s head and fooling him. At first I was annoyed that the victim-of-the-week was given so much air time in talking about his “issues”, but once the reveal I thought it was a brilliant parallel setup of Dean and Jeffrey versus Lucifer and Sam.

Other folks there was a parallel between Jeffrey’s mind set after he lost his demon and Deans after he lost Bobby.

Jeffery: “I was depressed Dean because he was gone. I was a wreck, an emotional shell, a drunk. I was suicidal.”
Dean: “What stopped you?”
Jeffery: “Allan”.

My immediate thought was, “Wow, rehab worked too well with this guy.” Then it was, “wait, is Sam the Allan to Dean?” Yeah, I can see that. Sure Dean was wobbly when Cas died but even more so there was also this loss of identity Dean had with taking care of Sam and protecting him from this evil destiny, that this was Dean's identity, it was what he was for so long. When Sam's dark destiny was finally put behind them and Sam not needing protection, Dean felt understandably lost. But losing Bobby pushed Dean over the edge i.e. he almost got himself killed in “The Slice Girls” and his answer to Sam begging and wanting him to promise not to get himself killed was “I’ll see what I can do.”

Sam has been Dean’s lifeline and what has kept him by being by Dean’s side, supportive and loving him unconditionally all the way. Sam is Dean’s Allan. Now with Dean finally hopping off the Depression train maybe it’s Dean’s turn to be the strong one.

[windykl]

zen--i hope you're right cuz i'm tired of hearing/reading that it was cas they were referring to...i must admit i at first thought BE was trying to make a point of it being about cas....

wow..where is everybody?? come out, come out wherever you are

[zenezie]

Oh, that's the first I've heard of cas being referred to .... Allan or Merrick? Merrick would make sense but Allan never crossed my mind because Cas has always been self serving and hardly a guiding light by any stretch of the imagination. The Cas/Merrick parallel makes tons more sense given the great deal of damage Cas caused in Dean's and Sam's relationship and then directly attacking Sam in front of Dean.

[windykl]

Feb 22, 2012 19:37:18 GMT -5 zenezie said:

Okay, I read in another board that Jeffry behaved like Castiel; acted meek and harmless and successfully got into Dean’s head and fooling him. At first I was annoyed that the victim-of-the-week was given so much air time in talking about his “issues”, but once the reveal I thought it was a brilliant parallel setup of Dean and Jeffrey versus Lucifer and Sam.

Other folks there was a parallel between Jeffrey’s mind set after he lost his demon and Deans after he lost Bobby.

Jeffery: “I was depressed Dean because he was gone. I was a wreck, an emotional shell, a drunk. I was suicidal.”
Dean: “What stopped you?”
Jeffery: “Allan”.

My immediate thought was, “Wow, rehab worked too well with this guy.” Then it was, “wait, is Sam the Allan to Dean?” Yeah, I can see that. Sure Dean was wobbly when Cas died but even more so there was also this loss of identity Dean had with taking care of Sam and protecting him from this evil destiny, that this was Dean's identity, it was what he was for so long. When Sam's dark destiny was finally put behind them and Sam not needing protection, Dean felt understandably lost. But losing Bobby pushed Dean over the edge i.e. he almost got himself killed in “The Slice Girls” and his answer to Sam begging and wanting him to promise not to get himself killed was “I’ll see what I can do.”

Sam has been Dean’s lifeline and what has kept him by being by Dean’s side, supportive and loving him unconditionally all the way. Sam is Dean’s Allan. Now with Dean finally hopping off the Depression train maybe it’s Dean’s turn to be the strong one.

what one theory is that cas was a parallel to allan...that dean became depressed, suicidal, and drinking due to losing cas...i know how much BE loves cas and cas/dean relationship so that's why i (and others) thought it was a shoutout to cas