|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 10, 2013 19:33:39 GMT -5
It's funny that you mention trash in biblical terms when I just recently made a note how in the Bible it says the least among you will become the greatest among you is that's what's happening with trash
|
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 10, 2013 19:35:56 GMT -5
No kidding. She knew more than Harold knew, obviously, but she didn't end up any better than him. Let me qualify that, she met as horrible an end, but did get the chance to redeem herself, which Harold didn't (and probably did not deserve.) In a way, Harold was just another vehicle, like the motorcycle that caused his own doom. Very true but I was revolted by her But I suppose she got her punishment in life it was good however to see her redeem herself in a way |
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 10, 2013 19:36:40 GMT -5
I guess Harold tried a bit of the same with his journal there at the end
|
|
Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
|
Post by Mistermoonlight on Nov 10, 2013 19:44:17 GMT -5
It's funny that you mention trash in biblical terms when I just recently made a note how in the Bible it says the least among you will become the greatest among you is that's what's happening with trash You know, I don't think you can help but imagine this story in terms of Armageddon, if for nothing else than the fact that it was said that the first time the world was destroyed by water, and the second time by fire. It brings in the whole question of how Christianity is founded. If the Devil is real, then how much power does he have? Is he equal to God? And if he's not, why should anyone be concerned as long as you know who has ultimate power? |
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 10, 2013 19:46:44 GMT -5
Ooooh good point and you're right it definitely has the revelation feel to it
|
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 10, 2013 19:53:39 GMT -5
In fact there are many scenes in the stand that bring to mind Bible verses
For instance the snake that slept right next to Tom do you think this was intentional of King
|
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 10, 2013 19:58:06 GMT -5
I think as it's been said in the Bible who will win explains to me who has the ultimate power but I'll borrow some lyrics from the band the killers
God gives us hope but we still fear what we don't know
|
|
Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
|
Post by Mistermoonlight on Nov 10, 2013 20:00:36 GMT -5
No kidding. She knew more than Harold knew, obviously, but she didn't end up any better than him. Let me qualify that, she met as horrible an end, but did get the chance to redeem herself, which Harold didn't (and probably did not deserve.) In a way, Harold was just another vehicle, like the motorcycle that caused his own doom. Very true but I was revolted by her But I suppose she got her punishment in life it was good however to see her redeem herself in a way And again, the issue of redemption, upon which many stories and some religions are based. It's almost like the scene in "The Wizard of Oz" where the wizard says 'pay no attention to that man behind the curtain' in which we are shown that legend is sometimes more about how you present yourself than actual fact is. I think I know one thing from life, and it is that some people are independent thinkers and others are followers, and I'm wondering if this is not a part of King's plot. Certainly, some folks in Mother Abigail's flock are followers, but are they so because of some intrinsic need to follow or simply because they are open to the influence of good? |
|
Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
|
Post by Mistermoonlight on Nov 10, 2013 20:10:01 GMT -5
In fact there are many scenes in the stand that bring to mind Bible verses For instance the snake that slept right next to Tom do you think this was intentional of King I had forgotten that part, but obviously it's laden with meaning. I wonder if Tom isn't somehow able to transcend evil simply because of his more limited view of the world. That would seem to be making an argument that at the heart we are all good. He is incorruptible because of his limited ability to see the world, yet he is also the stronger one. |
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 10, 2013 20:20:13 GMT -5
You know once when I was watching the news this topic was broached when there is a crisis people resort back to their nature are they followers or leaders either way both types need each other leaders need followers and followers need leaders
And ultimately Flagg is playing at a game he isn't destined to win he even states it himself he wants to be a leader but there is one opposing group that's determined and even without as many resources as he has they are stronger but not to mention there may be others like him in other parts of the world he mentions this in chapter 67
So either way there's no room for everyone to win and I think we are seeing who will be the ultimate leader/group by simply looking at all the things that are falling apart for Flagg
And it's not just something we readers are privy to we are witnessing two of flaggs main people Nadine and Lloyd begin to realize how faulty things are getting in the west with Flagg
|
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 10, 2013 20:22:19 GMT -5
Very good perspective on Tom I think you are right something keeps tom always golden always uncontaminated by the world and I believe we even touched on this once before in one of our meets
|
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 10, 2013 20:23:54 GMT -5
For some reason I see nick as a buffer he always knew so much and helped tom understand too but in a way that wouldn't corrupt him
And I have to say I love that when though nick is dead he and tom are still connected
|
|
Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
|
Post by Mistermoonlight on Nov 10, 2013 20:27:38 GMT -5
For some reason I see nick as a buffer he always knew so much and helped tom understand too but in a way that wouldn't corrupt him And I have to say I love that when though nick is dead he and tom are still connected I agree completely. |
|
Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
|
Post by Mistermoonlight on Nov 10, 2013 20:28:58 GMT -5
I think as it's been said in the Bible who will win explains to me who has the ultimate power but I'll borrow some lyrics from the band the killers God gives us hope but we still fear what we don't know Awesome. I think fear of the unknown is still the biggest one for most of us. |
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 10, 2013 20:34:46 GMT -5
I think when Lloyd "shakes" hands with Nadine Lloyd is struck deep with the dear that perhaps the Nadine state of mind is his future perhaps the entire west's future we even see Lloyd visit Nadine land in the elevator
|
|
Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
|
Post by Mistermoonlight on Nov 10, 2013 20:35:16 GMT -5
Great discussion tonight! I've missed this. Shall we start on chapter 66 next week and work our way on?
I'm off Friday night this coming week.
|
|
Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
|
Post by Mistermoonlight on Nov 10, 2013 20:37:15 GMT -5
I think when Lloyd "shakes" hands with Nadine Lloyd is struck deep with the dear that perhaps the Nadine state of mind is his future perhaps the entire west's future we even see Lloyd visit Nadine land in the elevator I gotta go back and read that scene again, but it sounds like you may be onto something there. |
|
Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
|
Post by Mistermoonlight on Nov 10, 2013 20:39:12 GMT -5
You know once when I was watching the news this topic was broached when there is a crisis people resort back to their nature are they followers or leaders either way both types need each other leaders need followers and followers need leaders And ultimately Flagg is playing at a game he isn't destined to win he even states it himself he wants to be a leader but there is one opposing group that's determined and even without as many resources as he has they are stronger but not to mention there may be others like him in other parts of the world he mentions this in chapter 67 So either way there's no room for everyone to win and I think we are seeing who will be the ultimate leader/group by simply looking at all the things that are falling apart for Flagg And it's not just something we readers are privy to we are witnessing two of flaggs main people Nadine and Lloyd begin to realize how faulty things are getting in the west with Flagg Before I leave tonight, I wonder if there is not some bigger parallel to not only religion, but politics here in the story. |
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 10, 2013 20:47:20 GMT -5
My auto correct is changing many words to silly things it keeps changing things it keeps changing the she to he lol either way you're probably right about the politics thing I will def think more on it
|
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 10, 2013 20:48:57 GMT -5
And yes chapter 66 and Friday sounds good to me I missed this a lot too
|
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 15, 2013 17:42:15 GMT -5
Join us at seven for our book club meet
We are beginning with chapter 66 of The Stand
|
|
Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
|
Post by Mistermoonlight on Nov 15, 2013 18:21:28 GMT -5
At the very end of chapter 65, King writes, "He saw the new look in their eyes, wary and questioning, and he felt the fear touch him again with its light moth wings."
We know that moths are drawn to flame, often at their own demise, so I take this as foreshadowing to Randall's fate (and that of his followers) with Trashcan Man.
|
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 15, 2013 18:44:36 GMT -5
I'll be a bit behind coming by at 720 to 730
|
|
Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
|
Post by Mistermoonlight on Nov 15, 2013 18:56:03 GMT -5
In chapter 66 we see Lloyd begin to realize that Trashcan Man is a problem. He has put incendiary fuses on every single fuel truck.
Then Julie Lawry comes in and tries to explain to Lloyd why Tom Cullen is an enemy. He doesn't seem to completely understand because he dismisses Julie's account to a degree, but he does take notes. Somehow Flagg's vision is failing him at the same time that his organization does in forwarding information to him.
Towards the end of the chapter we switch back to Tom Cullen's view. His post-hypnotic suggestion of when it was time to leave the west has kicked in. Flagg cannot seem to read him, which gives credence to the biblical quote you mentioned earlier about the least of them being the first.
On page 985 Tom remembers a quote from the poem "Ozymandias" which he remembers from Glenn Bateman. It is a poem about a great ruler who was sure that his name and deeds would be remembered. Its irony is that all is left is a crumbling statue and his words "look on my works, ye mighty and despair." (This same quote was used as an inspiration for the final few episodes of the TV series "Breaking Bad.") It serves to further foreshadow the entropy of Flagg's rule.
|
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 15, 2013 19:23:23 GMT -5
Hello there sorry to keep you waiting
|
|
Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
|
Post by Mistermoonlight on Nov 15, 2013 19:26:17 GMT -5
No problem. Glad you made it.
|
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 15, 2013 19:30:52 GMT -5
Glad to be here
I was curious if you'd post the quote I am unable to find it
|
|
Mistermoonlight
Administrator
Crystal the Monkey Fan Club
"The dreamers ride against the men of action. Oh see the men of action falling back."--Leonard Cohen
Posts: 8,508
|
Post by Mistermoonlight on Nov 15, 2013 19:34:50 GMT -5
Are you talking the Ozymandias quote?
I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
--Percy Bysshe Shelley
|
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 15, 2013 19:38:06 GMT -5
Chapter 66 through 67 seems to serve as a season of change for all those that are in the west they are steadily seeing the change for the worse
Even as crazy and as "loyal " Lloyd id even he is having doubts about the walking dude
We even get a glimpse of flaggs own insecurities of himself he knows things are "getting flaky" yet he is desperately clinging to the idea that its all ok
When many incidents are telling us quite the opppsite
|
|
|
|
Post by gilmorefanalways on Nov 15, 2013 19:39:12 GMT -5
Yes
|
|
