Don't look if you don't want to be offended.

[DeanandSam]

I think this is a fair question. He might be an abuser without knowing that he is that. There has been many times in the past seasons where Dean would rather strike a punch on Sam rather than talk. He also encourages Sam to do the same to him. I think Dean is an amazing brother, who has sacrificed a lot for his brother, so there is no question that he loves Sam, because it's obvious he does. But abuser's are not monsters, or bad people, and they love the people they abuse. But is it right to be abusive in punching or striking a person you love just because you feel like it? There is an underlying problem in Dean, that I am sure he knows he has, but I don't think the show will touch on it more than it has.

In season 7 episode 3, he punched Sam just because he took the car without asking. Though, that's not the real reason why he punched him, he punched also because he was concerned, upset, and had a lot of stress build up, because Sam was missing and Dean had no idea where and what was happening to him. All legit reasons, but is it a reason to punch him? I don't think it is.

There are many other examples, that if you agree with my sentiment, you would know what I am talking about. I am not using the examples of when Dean, or even Sam for instance, where not right in the head and were controlled by some other being to be violent towards each other.

Again, this is not a thread for fans who love Dean so much, that they don't want to look at him as an abuser, but it is a simple question, which you can answer by participating in the poll by answering "Yes" or "No"

[JazzBeePrime]

I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW WHY THIS KEEPS COMING UP. SOMEONE WHO IS ABUSIVE DOESN'T JUST TURN IT ON OR OFF. THEY ARE ABUSIVE ALL THE TIME. THE CONSUMPTION OF ALCAHOL OR NARCOTICS EXASERBATES THE ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR. DEAN HAS WHACKED SAM, BUT THOSE WHACKS ARE SO FEW AND FAR BETWEEN THAT THEY DO NOT CONSTITUTE THE LABEL OF 'ABUSE'. I DO THINK DEAN CAN BE HARD HEADED AND ABRASIVE, BUT HE DOES NOT FALL UNDER THE MONIKER OF AN ABUSER. I KNOW SOME MAY NOT LIKE IT WHEN DEAN POPS SAM, I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT. I DON'T LIKE IT WHEN SAM TALKS DOWN TO DEAN. SAM CAN BE JUST AS HARD HEADED AND ABRASIVE AS DEAN, BUT I DON'T CONSIDER SAM VERBALLY ABUSIVE. IF YOU WANT TO DEBATE DEAN'S USE OF OCCASSIONAL PHYSICALLITY WITH SAM, I THINK IT'S FAIR TO ALSO DEBATE SAM'S USE OF WORDS WITH DEAN. ONE IS JUST AS HURTFUL AS THE OTHER. THAT BEING SAID, I DON'T THINK EITHER BROTHER IS ABUSIVE, BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION.

[Rose]

Honestly, if people feel the way that they do, more power to them. I, however, don't agree nor do I really seen Dean as abusive. I know real abuse, and I just never got the impression that Dean was abusive. I think he can be a bit irrational and unnecessarily violent at times in terms of just hauling off and hitting Sam without thinking things through first, but abusive? No.

[JazzBeePrime]

ROCKETQUEEN, I COULD NOT AGREE WITH YOU MORE. WELL SAID

[DeanandSam]

Valid points that you guys brought up. And probably described Dean's interaction with Sam better than I did. I guess "Abusive" is not the right term, because now that I think about it. The people who are being abused tend to fear being in the same room as the abuser. Which Sam doesn't showcase any fear towards Dean. Also, Sam wouldn't stay with Dean either. But I do still think that Dean is particularly violent towards Sam, and I am sure he doesn't mean to be that way, but he just is.

And Sam being Vocally abusive to Dean, I think if you are referring to Season 4, I discount half of the stuff Sam has done, because he was not in his better judgement. He was hyped up on demon blood half of the time, and he was being fed lies by Ruby that made him think what he was doing was right. So even though those words were hurtful, I don't think it was really Sam who was speaking them.

[Rose]

Jan 21, 2012 18:29:25 GMT -5 DeanandSam said:

Valid points that you guys brought up. And probably described Dean's interaction with Sam better than I did. I guess "Abusive" is not the right term, because now that I think about it. The people who are being abused tend to fear being in the same room as the abuser. Which Sam doesn't showcase any fear towards Dean. Also, Sam wouldn't stay with Dean either. But I do still think that Dean is particularly violent towards Sam, and I am sure he doesn't mean to be that way, but he just is.

And Sam being Vocally abusive to Dean, I think if you are referring to Season 4, I discount half of the stuff Sam has done, because he was not in his better judgement. He was hyped up on demon blood half of the time, and he was being fed lies by Ruby that made him think what he was doing was right. So even though those words were hurtful, I don't think it was really Sam who was speaking them.

There was only one time I recall in S4 that Sam was nasty in his words to Dean and that was during the siren episode, Sex and Violence. Even then, Sam still wasn't verbally abusive. He genuinely felt that something had broken inside of Dean in Hell and he wasn't strong enough to do the job. If you remember his conversation with Chuck he said "Does it all rest on my shoulders?" and Chuck said "That's the way the story seems to be headed" or something along those lines. People say things to each other all the time to hurt each other when they're angry, but Sam wasn't doing it on a consistent basis to be mean. Brother fights, spats and such happen in everyday life which is what happened with them.

The siren saliva hexed them, in so many words, which caused them their own questions and fears in regards to one another come out more angrily and cruel than normal. The feelings escalated into rage, which I feel is what happened why the things Sam and Dean said to each other came out the way that they did. I mean, Dean almost chopped Sam's head off. Under normal circumstances, that never would have happened. I don't feel either brother was in their right mind during that scene. The siren had just gotten to them until it was killed. People say things out of anger a lot and this just happened to both of them. I don't feel either meant what the other said.

As for the demon blood, it was like a bad drug for Sam which is what caused him to act so irrationally and violently, and Dean tends to act out physically when he's angry or scared. When a person is abused both physically and mentally, the abuser attacks with no remorse and does it on a regular basis. Neither brother does this on a regular basis, nor do the other fear each other. Neither Sam nor Dean are abusive verbally or physically. Anyway, those are just my 2 cents.

[SoCal]

Wasn't it Sam who really beat the shit out of Dean at the end of season 4? Not one random punch but a real beat down. And then he said some nasty stuff about Dean knowing nothing about him "never have, never will."

Seems to me Sam gives "as good" as he gets.

[Rose]

Jan 21, 2012 18:40:26 GMT -5 SoCal said:

Wasn't it Sam who really beat the shit out of Dean at the end of season 4? Not one random punch but a real beat down. And then he said some nasty stuff about Dean knowing nothing about him "never have, never will."

Seems to me Sam gives "as good" as he gets.

A post like this is a really good way to start a brother war which we're trying to prevent. It has nothing to do with which brother gives this, that or the other. Be reasonable. No, Sam did not give Dean a "beat down" as they both punched and knocked the crap out of each other. One of Sam's hits just managed to knock Dean on his ass, and you also need to acknowledge and keep in mind that Sam was contaminated by demon blood at that point, which was like drugs. It was like somebody on heroin, and demon blood is tainted. Something like that would make him act out irrationally. Still, regardless of that, neither brother is mentally, physically, verbally abusive to the other.

[dfanatic]

I voted Yes to Dean being an abuser and abusive.
He is towards Sam. Maybe not all the time, but he is. Just some of the things he says to Sam along with the punching.
As for some of the other posters that say the abused wouldn't stay with an abuser. Most people being abused think they deserve being abused and they stay with their abuser.
They get used to it. I think Sam is just used to Dean punching him and saying all kinds of crap to him. That's just the way Dean is.

I don't consider Dean to be a constant abuser, but I think he feels better when he punches Sam or makes Sam feel inferior to him.

As for Dean punching Sam for taking his car. I think Dean could have just waited for Sam and talked to him. It's almost like Dean thinks punching Sam helps him or something. Like Dean thinks he's going to knock some sense into Sam or something. Sam isn't stupid, even though Dean thinks he is. Just like Dean thinks he's always right and Sam is always wrong.

Also some people don't even know they're being abusive and maybe Dean doesn't realize or care whether he hurts Sam or not.

[SoCal]

I'm not trying to start a brother war...never have, never will. I was just pointing out that both of them have had their issues and lashed out at each other. Dean usually punches....once. And Sam usually verbally assaults Dean.

I've always said I enjoy the rough and tumble and the fact that the brothers learn from their mistakes. I have no preconceived notion of how either of them should act, except what has been presented on the show: Dean has a big brother complex and Sam wants to be treated as an equal. I love 'em both.

Nuff said?

[JazzBeePrime]

I WASN'T JUST REFERING TO SEASON 4. WITHOUT TRYING TO START ANYMORE DISAGREEMENTS, I CAN REMEMBER SAM SAYING SOME NOT SO NICE THINGS TO DEAN, AS FAR BACK AS S1. SAM HAS ALSO UTTERED THE WORDS, "I'M STRONGER AND A BETTER HUNTER THAN YOU", POST DEMON BLOOD ADDICTION. TO BE FAIR, HE WAS BEING ANALYTICAL AND NOT INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO BE MEAN.

I AGREE THAT THE FIGHT AT THE END OF 'WTLB', WAS SAM HAVING HIS FEELINGS HURT BY DEAN'S POV, WHILE HOPPED UP ON DEMON BLOOD. SO I WON'T MENTION THE CHOKE HOLD SAM PUT ON DEAN <DIVES BEHIND THE COUCH>

[Rose]

Jan 21, 2012 18:54:04 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

I WASN'T JUST REFERING TO SEASON 4. WITHOUT TRYING TO START ANYMORE DISAGREEMENTS, I CAN REMEMBER SAM SAYING SOME NOT SO NICE THINGS TO DEAN, AS FAR BACK AS S1. SAM HAS ALSO UTTERED THE WORDS, "I'M STRONGER AND A BETTER HUNTER THAN YOU", POST DEMON BLOOD ADDICTION. TO BE FAIR, HE WAS BEING ANALYTICAL AND NOT INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO BE MEAN.

I'm sorry, but where did Sam ever say that he was a smarter and better hunter than Dean post demon blood addiction, because no... he did not. He said it during the siren episode. He told him when he'd been affected by the siren saliva, which was S4- Episode 14: Sex and Violence

"I'm a better hunter than you are. Faster, smarter. I can take out demons that you're too scared to even go near."

That was when he'd been drinking demon blood on top of being affected by the siren. If we're really going to go there, how about Dean calling Sam a monster? Where is all this "Sam is a verbal abuser" stuff coming from because he isn't and it's unfair. Neither brother is abusive toward the other, because if they were Sam would fear Dean hitting him on a consistent basis and Dean would fear Sam talking to him like that on a consistent basis which he does not.

[smolderhalder67]

I'm sorry. This is ridiculous. Dean is not abusive. Sam can take care of himself, but he just prefers most of the time to not fight back. Abusive to me is someone who beats on someone that is incapable of defending themselves against that person.
They're BROTHERS, they fight. But calling Dean abusive is ridiculous.

And I'm a SamGirl.

[Rose]

Jan 21, 2012 18:52:45 GMT -5 SoCal said:

I'm not trying to start a brother war...never have, never will. I was just pointing out that both of them have had their issues and lashed out at each other. Dean usually punches....once. And Sam usually verbally assaults Dean.

I've always said I enjoy the rough and tumble and the fact that the brothers learn from their mistakes. I have no preconceived notion of how either of them should act, except what has been presented on the show: Dean has a big brother complex and Sam wants to be treated as an equal. I love 'em both.

Nuff said?

Sam has verbally assaulted Dean maybe three times in total I can recall.

S1- Ep 10: Asylum (affected by the crazy doctor)
S4- Ep 14: Sex and Violence (siren spell)
S4- Ep 21: When the Levee Breaks (demon blood)

Dean has hit Sam

S2- Episode 3: Bloodlust
S2- Episode 14: Born Under a Bad Sign
S4- Episode 4: Metamorphosis (he hit him TWICE in that one)
S4- Episode 14: Sex and Violence (siren spell)
S4- Episode 21- When the Levee Breaks
S6- You Can't Handle the Truth (multiple hits that it knocked Sam out)
S7- Episode 3: Girl Next Door (hit Sam because he took off)

If we're really going to go there... Still, it doesn't mean either brother abusive. They have both verbally assaulted the other and have both hit each other.

[JazzBeePrime]

Jan 21, 2012 18:52:45 GMT -5 SoCal said:

I'm not trying to start a brother war...never have, never will. I was just pointing out that both of them have had their issues and lashed out at each other. Dean usually punches....once. And Sam usually verbally assaults Dean.

I've always said I enjoy the rough and tumble and the fact that the brothers learn from their mistakes. I have no preconceived notion of how either of them should act, except what has been presented on the show: Dean has a big brother complex and Sam wants to be treated as an equal. I love 'em both.

Nuff said?

I FULLY AGREE WITH WHAT YOU'RE SAYING SOCAL. NEITHER BOY IS INNOCENT WHEN IT COMES TO BEING HURTFUL TOWARDS THE OTHER. YOU ALSO CAN'T CRITIQUE ONE BROTHER WOTHOUT CRITIQUING THE OTHER. SAM IS BY FAR, NO WHIPPED PUPPY. HE IS NOT SUBMISSIVE TO DEAN. HE KNOWS WHEN PUSHED TO FAR, THERE'S A POSSIBILTY DEAN MAY TURN AROUND AND POP HIM ONE. IT DOESN'T HAPPEN VERY OFTEN, BUT IT DOES HAPPEN ONCE IN A BLUE MOON. HE ACCEPTS IT AS PART OF DEAN'S FLAWS. ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE SAME BOAT, DEAN KNOWS SAM CAN BE VERBALLY HURTFUL WHEN HE'S PROVOKED TOO FAR. HE ACCEPTS IT AS ONE OF SAMMY'S FLAWS. IT DOES NOT MAKE EITHER ONE OF THEM ABUSIVE. BOTH ARE STUBBORN, ABRASIVE, PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL AND THEIR BOTH ALPHA MALES. ABUSIVE? HELL NO. THEY LOVE EACH OTHER WAY TOO MUCH FOR THAT CRAP.

[DeanandSam]

Jan 21, 2012 19:01:01 GMT -5 @smolderhalder67 said:

I'm sorry. This is ridiculous. Dean is not abusive. Sam can take care of himself, but he just prefers most of the time to not fight back. Abusive to me is someone who beats on someone that is incapable of defending themselves against that person.
They're BROTHERS, they fight. But calling Dean abusive is ridiculous.

And I'm a SamGirl.

Well, that's why I created the post, to get other people's perspective on it. Because I would have depicted Dean as being abusive, and probably would still think he is if I didn't create this thread. Now that I heard other people's opinion I am looking at Dean's interaction with Sam differently. That's why I gave you the option to choose "Yes" or "No" It's a good debate lol, but not created to cause dispute between other people here, so please don't start with that guys.

[JazzBeePrime]

IT WAS BOTH SAID AND IMPLIED DURING THE SOULESSSAM DEBACLE.THAT'S WHY I INCLUDED THE 'IT WAS ANALYTICAL' REMARK EVEN THO HE WAS STILL ENDURING HIS BLOOD ADDICTION, SAM ALSO SAID IT IN 'OTHOAP'. I'M NOT LOOKING TO START ANYTHING HERE, JUST JOINING IN A FRIENDLY DEBATE ABOUT THIS WHOLE 'ABUSIVE DEAN' NONSENSE.

[DeanandSam]

Jan 21, 2012 19:16:02 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

IT WAS BOTH SAID AND IMPLIED DURING THE SOULESSSAM DEBACLE.THAT'S WHY I INCLUDED THE 'IT WAS ANALYTICAL' REMARK EVEN THO HE WAS STILL ENDURING HIS BLOOD ADDICTION, SAM ALSO SAID IT IN 'OTHOAP'. I'M NOT LOOKING TO START ANYTHING HERE, JUST JOINING IN A FRIENDLY DEBATE ABOUT THIS WHOLE 'ABUSIVE DEAN' NONSENSE.

Lol why I are you always waving I give you a dancing banana

[Rose]

Jan 21, 2012 19:16:02 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

IT WAS BOTH SAID AND IMPLIED DURING THE SOULESSSAM DEBACLE.THAT'S WHY I INCLUDED THE 'IT WAS ANALYTICAL' REMARK EVEN THO HE WAS STILL ENDURING HIS BLOOD ADDICTION, SAM ALSO SAID IT IN 'OTHOAP'. I'M NOT LOOKING TO START ANYTHING HERE, JUST JOINING IN A FRIENDLY DEBATE ABOUT THIS WHOLE 'ABUSIVE DEAN' NONSENSE.

Yes, but he never said it maliciously in OTHOAP at all. He told Ruby that he felt like Dean wasn't strong enough to kill Lilith because of what happened to Dean in Hell. He needed to be the one to do it. He never meant it in an egotistical, rude way. So how does that even really count? He never said it to Dean either.

[SoCal]

Debates usually happen because of disputes. That being said, it doesn't mean they can't happen with decorum.

I will always be able to debate without being disagreeable. However, if someone decides to take my post as a verbal slap, I can't do much about it.

I have always believed that these characters were really well written: both have individual strength, weaknesses, faults and courage. Sort of like REAL people.

[DeanandSam]

Jan 21, 2012 19:29:00 GMT -5 SoCal said:

Debates usually happen because of disputes. That being said, it doesn't mean they can't happen with decorum.

I will always be able to debate without being disagreeable. However, if someone decides to take my post as a verbal slap, I can't do much about it.

I have always believed that these characters were really well written: both have individual strength, weaknesses, faults and courage. Sort of like REAL people.

Lol

Yeah, real people, but at the same time not the kind of relationship you usually see in real life.

[Rose]

Jan 21, 2012 19:29:00 GMT -5 SoCal said:

Debates usually happen because of disputes. That being said, it doesn't mean they can't happen with decorum.

I will always be able to debate without being disagreeable. However, if someone decides to take my post as a verbal slap, I can't do much about it.

I have always believed that these characters were really well written: both have individual strength, weaknesses, faults and courage. Sort of like REAL people.

That was uncalled for... I didn't take your post as a virtual slap; I just did not agree with you. Also, how do you debate a topic without being disagreeable? Typically debates happen when people disagree with one another... that makes absolutely no sense.

That's exactly what I said. It's amazing how people can just blatantly ignore the part of my post where I state that Sam and Dean fight like real brothers do and that Sam and Dean say mean things to each other in the heat of the moment just like anybody else does... Astounding, really. I'm stepping out of here before this gets any worse.

[JazzBeePrime]

Jan 21, 2012 19:19:48 GMT -5 Rose said:

Jan 21, 2012 19:16:02 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

IT WAS BOTH SAID AND IMPLIED DURING THE SOULESSSAM DEBACLE.THAT'S WHY I INCLUDED THE 'IT WAS ANALYTICAL' REMARK EVEN THO HE WAS STILL ENDURING HIS BLOOD ADDICTION, SAM ALSO SAID IT IN 'OTHOAP'. I'M NOT LOOKING TO START ANYTHING HERE, JUST JOINING IN A FRIENDLY DEBATE ABOUT THIS WHOLE 'ABUSIVE DEAN' NONSENSE.

Yes, but he never said it maliciously in OTHOAP at all. He told Ruby that he felt like Dean wasn't strong enough to kill Lilith because of what happened to Dean in Hell. He needed to be the one to do it. He never meant it in an egotistical, rude way. So how does that even really count? He never said it to Dean either.

I NEVER SAID SAM SAID IT TO BE MALICIOUS, ONLY THAT HE SAID IT MORE THAN ONE TIM E. I MENTIONED THAT THE OTHER TIMES WERE DURING HIS ADDICTION AND DURING SOULESSSAM.

[DeanandSam]

Jan 21, 2012 19:34:28 GMT -5 Rose said:

Jan 21, 2012 19:29:00 GMT -5 SoCal said:

Debates usually happen because of disputes. That being said, it doesn't mean they can't happen with decorum.

I will always be able to debate without being disagreeable. However, if someone decides to take my post as a verbal slap, I can't do much about it.

I have always believed that these characters were really well written: both have individual strength, weaknesses, faults and courage. Sort of like REAL people.

That was uncalled for... I didn't take your post as a virtual slap; I just did not agree with you. Also, how do you debate a topic without being disagreeable? Typically debates happen when people disagree with one another... that makes absolutely no sense.

That's exactly what I said. It's amazing how people can just blatantly ignore the part of my post where I state that Sam and Dean fight like real brothers do and that Sam and Dean say mean things to each other in the heat of the moment just like anybody else does... Astounding, really. I'm stepping out of here before this gets any worse.

I agree with you about the way Sam and Dean interact. Though I don't think they fight like real brothers, my brothers certainty don't interact the way Sam and Dean do. I think this also goes back Sam and Dean being erotically co-dependent to each other. So their fights and arguments do tend to have more passion and intensity to them lol.

[SoCal]

Jeez, evidently someone felt "verbally slapped."

[isitfridayyet]

I feel verbally slapped by the direction this thread went in. Not that it wasn't silly to start with. Dean isn't abusive. Sam isn't helpless. Sorry but this is pretty silly.

[SoCal]

Jan 21, 2012 20:44:27 GMT -5 isitfridayyet said:

I feel verbally slapped by the direction this thread went in. Not that it wasn't silly to start with. Dean isn't abusive. Sam isn't helpless. Sorry but this is pretty silly.

Agreed.

[Rose]

Jan 21, 2012 19:53:19 GMT -5 SoCal said:

Jeez, evidently someone felt "verbally slapped."

Why don't you just openly say, "Jeeze, evidently Rose felt verbally slapped" and continue laughing at me from there? I can read between the lines. I'm not an idiot.

Jan 21, 2012 20:44:27 GMT -5 isitfridayyet said:

I feel verbally slapped by the direction this thread went in. Not that it wasn't silly to start with. Dean isn't abusive. Sam isn't helpless. Sorry but this is pretty silly.

This.

[DeanandSam]

Jan 21, 2012 20:44:27 GMT -5 isitfridayyet said:

I feel verbally slapped by the direction this thread went in. Not that it wasn't silly to start with. Dean isn't abusive. Sam isn't helpless. Sorry but this is pretty silly.

Might be silly to you since you don't agree with the idea that Dean is abusive, but it's not silly if others see this in Dean's character. It is pretty subjective, but this wasn't a fact thread, merely an opinion.

[Aeryn]

*verbally slaps OP*