Don't look if you don't want to be offended.

[MariaARIS3]

I never said that I consider either of them abusive, so at least we agree on that!
But I can't believe than you consider Sam asking Dean how their dad let him go hunt alone or making fun of his EMF device as Sam bitchslapping Dean and that Dean gets hurt by these kind of things, because then we can count every time the boys make a teasing comment to each other as bitter hurtful words... I'm not overlooking Dean's feelings here, but at least for the two examples you gave me, there is absolutely no comparison... We're taking about really hurtful words here, not about teasing words between the brothers.

[1027phoenix]

Jan 23, 2012 21:33:22 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

Jan 23, 2012 20:55:18 GMT -5 1027phoenix said:

I agree with the posters who said it is wrong to punch someone just because you don't agree with something they've said or done.
What makes it worse for me is it makes me wonder if Dean used to beat Sam when they were kids. He had total control over Sam along with his father which I why I think Sam doesn't hit back. After all, Dean was both Sam's father and brother. As far as I know Sam never hit his father either. Is the reason he doesn't fight back because he's used to this kind of treatment?
If that is the case, then Dean is an abuser.

HOLY CRAP ON A STICK! REALLY!? WHEN THE HELL HAS DEAN EVER HAD CONTROL OVER SAM? THE ANSWER: NEVER. dean went out of his way to make sure sam had some semblence of a childhood. he honored sam's request to stay away while he was at stanford. sam isn't some wilting flower. he voices his opinions, he's stood upto john, he's stood upto dean, he fights back when he feels he has to.if dean had 'total control' over sam, he wouldn't have stood up for himself. he wouldn't have taken off on his own with such confidence.please stop trying to make the boys out to be something they are not. dean is not an abuser and sam isn't a whipped puppy.

I did not say he abused Sam as a child. I said it made me wonder if he did.
And, yes, he did have control over Sam as a child because he played the role of father when his father was gone. Parents do have control over their children.
When Sam got older he became more independent. But I stand by my claim that Dean had control over Sam as a child.

[1027phoenix]

Jan 23, 2012 21:39:58 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Jan 23, 2012 20:55:18 GMT -5 1027phoenix said:

I agree with the posters who said it is wrong to punch someone just because you don't agree with something they've said or done.

*punches phoenix*

Back atcha!

[pentadactyl]

Hey back at you, Friday.

Jan 24, 2012 1:36:02 GMT -5 HopeNeverDies said:

I think the purpose of showing Dean's violent side this season has been to show his state of mind after losing so many people he cares about and to be facing another seemingly indestructible foe. I think Dean has slowing been changing into a guy with a major chip on his shoulder (and rightfully so) who doesn't care about hurting himself anymore or hurting others. I'm hoping that part of his storyarc will be the restoration of his happy self who loves to hunt (more like his pre-season 4 self or at least pre mid-season 5 self).

That's what I thought last year. Or at least, it came across a lot more effectively for me then. The YCHTT scene people were discussing a few posts back or LIB. Whatever their take on the rest of this discussion, that Dean was seriously disturbed in those scenes seems to have come across pretty well to everyone. And when people watch those scenes, they (or at least most of them) don't feel like cheering. You come away from those scenes feel scared for Dean.

This year, the only one of those scenes I mentioned that even came close to that was the organ donation scene. But there too, trying to get us to feel Dean's pain was in equal parts accompanied by trying to get us to want him to punch that guy. They made a point to make the guy, who at the end of the day was just doing his job, seem extra squirrely and unpleasant. And back when the CWL was around, there was even a thread where people were cheering for the way Dean dispatched with that rude guy who had no business disrespecting Bobby like that.

The TGND punch and the threat against the new age guy don't even get that much consideration. They're played for laughs! And yeah, we can come in after the fact and reanalyze and say Dean was worried during the TGND scene and that does make sense to me. But that's also accompanied with a healthy does of people chuckling and saying"Haha, well that's what you get for stealing Baby."

I can't remember a punch prior to this season that was played for laughs. I can't imagine laughter being even a fraction of the response to the scene in Fresh Blood or in Metamorphosis or even any of the violent moments last year.

Jan 23, 2012 21:24:11 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

i think in dean's mind, he wasnt attacking his brother, he was attacking something pretending to be his brother.

The conversation right after in Family Matters casts doubt on this interpretation. In that interaction, his approach seems to be to find out what's wrong with Sam, not who or what Sam is. It seems from that scene that he has accepted that it really is a defective Sam.

Jan 24, 2012 3:58:07 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

hell, even in the pilot epi, sam turns to dean and says, "dad let you hunt alone?" dean was taken aback by the comment and was like, 'uh,yea. i'm 26 years old sam, i'm a big boy and capable of hunting on my own.' it may not seem like a big deal to you, but the way dean reacts to those types of comments, it's obvious that it hurts him.

I can't even... *pinches nose bridge* ... what?!

[Aeryn]

Jan 24, 2012 0:18:29 GMT -5 isitfridayyet said:

Maybe it's because they remind me of this:


I'm terrified of clowns. They're fucked up looking. My friend was into this band and he used to scare me with their pictures and music. I will never forget walking into his house into the dark living room and turning on the TV where those two dudes were laughing hysterically and talking about cutting peoples throats..and the volume was on like...80.

Color me traumatized!

Awww. They're not so bad.

I swear, everytime I see JazzBeePrime's signature pic, I'm posting THIS one:

[JazzBeePrime]

lol, aeryn, you're awesome! i'm an admitted transformers geek. bumblebee just happens to be my favorite.

maria- like i said earlier, it may not seem like a big deal to you, but from the look on dean's face, it was a big deal to HIM. after a conversation with some other fellow spn fans, i came to a realization. i know many say that some of the more hurtful things sam has said has been under spells and addictions. some other BI-BROTHER fans brought up some really good points. when sam was zapped by dr.ellicott, it intensified his thoughts and rage. it did not control what he was thinking, it only intensified his rage through what he was already thinking. so what sam was thinking was actually his own thoughts. his trying to kill dean was a result of the rage brought on by ellicott."Dr. Feelgood was working on some sort of, like, extreme rage therapy. He thought that if he could get his patients to vent their anger then they would be cured of it. Instead it only made them worse and worse and angrier and angrier."- dean.

the siren venom made both boys open to suggestion, but it also worked as a sort of truth syrum. it didn't put thoughts into the boys heads, those thoughts were already there. the siren exploited those thoughts to turn the boys on each other.so what the boys said to each other was what they were thinking, but not giving voice to until ingesting the venom.

in 'fallen idols', when sam and dean have that arguement, sam was voicing his own thoughts, thru frustration. he was not under any type of influence.

point is, both boys have issues with pain and anger. every once in a long while, they reach a boiling point where dean will deck sam or sam will verbally bitchslap dean. there's no real malice behind it.that's just the way they vent and deal with things.

[MariaARIS3]

Jan 24, 2012 11:38:34 GMT -5 @pentadactyl said:

That's what I thought last year. Or at least, it came across a lot more effectively for me then. The YCHTT scene people were discussing a few posts back or LIB. Whatever their take on the rest of this discussion, that Dean was seriously disturbed in those scenes seems to have come across pretty well to everyone. And when people watch those scenes, they (or at least most of them) don't feel like cheering. You come away from those scenes feel scared for Dean.

This year, the only one of those scenes I mentioned that even came close to that was the organ donation scene. But there too, trying to get us to feel Dean's pain was in equal parts accompanied by trying to get us to want him to punch that guy. They made a point to make the guy, who at the end of the day was just doing his job, seem extra squirrely and unpleasant. And back when the CWL was around, there was even a thread where people were cheering for the way Dean dispatched with that rude guy who had no business disrespecting Bobby like that.

That was a very bad written scene for me but only because I know how the people who are responsible to approach the family of a possible organ donor handle the situation. And that is sooooo not the way they do the approaching... Hell, if someone approached me the same way this guy did, I would get tempted to punch him too...

Jan 24, 2012 11:38:34 GMT -5 @pentadactyl said:

Jan 24, 2012 3:58:07 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

hell, even in the pilot epi, sam turns to dean and says, "dad let you hunt alone?" dean was taken aback by the comment and was like, 'uh,yea. i'm 26 years old sam, i'm a big boy and capable of hunting on my own.' it may not seem like a big deal to you, but the way dean reacts to those types of comments, it's obvious that it hurts him.

I can't even... *pinches nose bridge* ... what?!

Exactly! Thank you!

[Aeryn]

Jan 24, 2012 14:22:05 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

lol, aeryn, you're awesome! i'm an admitted transformers geek. bumblebee just happens to be my favorite.

I love Transformers too.

Bumblebee was adoreable, but Megatron is more my type!!

[JazzBeePrime]

ahhh, you prefer the badboys i prefer the badasses who are teddy bears underneath.

http://i1092./albums/i406/tens1822/wuvhugz.jpg

[MariaARIS3]

Jan 24, 2012 14:22:05 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

maria- like i said earlier, it may not seem like a big deal to you, but from the look on dean's face, it was a big deal to HIM. after a conversation with some other fellow spn fans, i came to a realization. i know many say that some of the more hurtful things sam has said has been under spells and addictions. some other BI-BROTHER fans brought up some really good points. when sam was zapped by dr.ellicott, it intensified his thoughts and rage. it did not control what he was thinking, it only intensified his rage through what he was already thinking. so what sam was thinking was actually his own thoughts. his trying to kill dean was a result of the rage brought on by ellicott."Dr. Feelgood was working on some sort of, like, extreme rage therapy. He thought that if he could get his patients to vent their anger then they would be cured of it. Instead it only made them worse and worse and angrier and angrier."- dean.

We'll just have to agree to disagree about Dean's hurt feelings about the EMF device or the pilot scene.
As for the Asylum episode Sam said nothing more to Dean than what Dean had been saying to sam every time they argued about John. Dean always thought that Sam was wrong for not following John's orders, while Sam always thought Dean was wrong for following John without never questioning him.
But what are you telling me here? That deep down Sam wanted to kill Dean???

the siren venom made both boys open to suggestion, but it also worked as a sort of truth syrum. it didn't put thoughts into the boys heads, those thoughts were already there. the siren exploited those thoughts to turn the boys on each other.so what the boys said to each other was what they were thinking, but not giving voice to until ingesting the venom.

Fact. Sam did believe the words he said to Dean (just like Dean believe what he said to Sam). But let's not forget that Sam was a drug (demon blood) addict back then. Have you ever happened to have to deal with a drug addict? Because I had to for many years with my brother-in-law... Drug addicts live in their own reality... In their screwed up head things are twisted in a way where they are the perfect, misunderstood and misjudged victims and for every bad thing that happens to them everyone else is responsible but them.
They're not trying to make excuses, they DO believe the things they say when they're high. But I can also assure you that they definitely not believe them... They think they're strong and that they have everything under control. and when you try to talk sense to them or stop them... then all hell breaks loose... For years, every time we went to hubby's hometown, I had to witness some of the most frightening fights between two brothers and I was fearing for my hubby's life because when they fought, my brother-in-law was in no position to control his power, unlike my husband who knew how much he had to hit to not cause any real harm...
I'm not trying to make excuses for Sam. But Sam had been acting exactly like my brother-in-law... And when he finally managed to come out of this nightmare alive (which will always be a miracle for me) he had the same behavior Sam had in season 5. His self-esteem had reached the bottom, he felt that he didn't worth a thing and all he did was apologizing for the horrible things he said and done to his family(because he could remember them)...

in 'fallen idols', when sam and dean have that arguement, sam was voicing his own thoughts, thru frustration. he was not under any type of influence.

what exactly was so bad that Sam told Dean then? That Dean's bossy behavior was one of the reasons he ran off with Ruby? Later on season 5, Dean himself admitted that he had to let Sam grow up...

BTW I really don't know if you're trying to imply anything by posting with capital letters the bi-bro fans...

[Aeryn]

Jan 24, 2012 15:32:55 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

ahhh, you prefer the badboys i prefer the badasses who are teddy bears underneath.

http://i1092./albums/i406/tens1822/wuvhugz.jpg

I love bad boys!! I mean, look at my avatar and signature pic. That should tell you something.

You're tens? You're the one who always used the color green for your posts on the CW?

[pentadactyl]

Jan 24, 2012 14:35:13 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

That was a very bad written scene for me but only because I know how the people who are responsible to approach the family of a possible organ donor handle the situation. And that is sooooo not the way they do the approaching... Hell, if someone approached me the same way this guy did, I would get tempted to punch him too...

Thanks for the clarification. I wondered how close to normal procedure that guy's behavior was. But that almost makes it even worse for me that they deliberately made the guy seem and act unpleasant so as to put the audience in a position where they're supposed to be rooting for Dean to punch someone. I don't ever remember them trying to get me to cheer for Dean punching someone before. It was always shown as something jarring, not ... righteous. This year they seem to be lauding his violent side rather than just using it as a tool to further explore him.

Re: things said under influence. People think some pretty bad things about the people around them and that's NOT A BAD THING. Accepting someone's flaws or loving them despite those flaws is quite another matter from being blind to them. There's that old adage about how friends are honest with one another. The only thing that separates your best friend from your worst enemy is how they use those truths they see about you. And that one and only important thing is what the 'influence' changes.

Besides which, if you're making the point that this is Sam's weapon as much as punches are Dean's, I'd think that at the very least Dean'd have to receive 'insults' more than he doled out. Sam 'hurt Dean's feelings' by being surprised about him being allowed to hunt on his own, Dean accuses Sam of shirking his responsibility to his family. Sam calls Dean pathetic in Asylum, Dean calls Sam a selfish bastard in Scarecrow. Sam says Dean's weak, Dean says Sam's not even recognizable as himself anymore. Seems to me Dean can give at least as good as he got.

[JazzBeePrime]

MARIA- you asked me to point out specific examples of when sam said something hurtful to dean (from dean's pov). i did that. as i have been saying all along, i don't find any malice in sam's occasional verbal bitchslap, or dean's physical bitchslap. my entire point was that dean isn't the only one to bottle up his emotions to the boiling point, and every once in a blue moon bitchslap his brother. sam does it too, except he uses words and not a closed fist. sam isn't some whipped puppy. he's just as flawed as dean is. like dean, sam is his own man, stands on his own 2 feet, vocalizes his own opinions and does what he wants when he wants.

yes, i have a family member who is an addict. i know the way it works, in the real world.this is a fictional tv show where they do take liberties with things. sam's addiction wasn't so much the blood as it was the rush of power it gave him. it didn't control his thoughts, it affected his emotions (specifically, his anger). so, i'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on that.

i wasn't trying to imply anything by capitolizing bi-bro. i was stating that my conversation took place with fans who love both brothers, thereby having a broader take on things concerning both boys.

[SoCal]

JBP - I've read both your posts and agree with your analysis. Sam was high on power not demon's blood. Even Ruby told him that at the end...."Dumbo, you didn't need a feather to fly..."
And with Dr. Endicott...it only made his true feeling come out.
So Sam has real brother issues. But I believe he loves Dean. He just has the same problems all little brothers have. Trying to break out from the big brother's shadow and prove that they're just as or more capable.
And Dean, of course, has big brother issues that I think he's expressed by telling Sam that, he, Dean, has to remember Sam is a grown-up and can take care of himself.
I think maybe that's why the brothers are apart more this season. Dean realizes Sam CAN take care of himself and they don't have to go to each situation together. Just like Dean, in 1.1 tells Sam, who is surprised that "Dad let you go on a hunt by yourself?" Dean had to remind Sam that he wasn't a teenager who needed Dad to guide him along the way.
Whew....hope I didn't ramble on too much.
But I did "karma" you for your insight!

[Rose]

Jan 24, 2012 16:43:08 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Jan 24, 2012 15:32:55 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

ahhh, you prefer the badboys i prefer the badasses who are teddy bears underneath.

http://i1092./albums/i406/tens1822/wuvhugz.jpg

I love bad boys!! I mean, look at my avatar and signature pic. That should tell you something.

You're tens? You're the one who always used the color green for your posts on the CW?

I love bad boys too. Especially, bad, naughty frontmen who have green eyes and long, red hair.

[amelianne]

I think Dean would be the first to say that he's made a lot of mistakes in the past, and he still makes a lot of mistakes. Dean knows he was never worthy of Lisa and Ben, and that he's really only good for killing and that's about it.

So people also think he's abusive? Well, I guess just add that to the long list of things wrong with Dean. There are no "supernatural" influences/reasons for Dean's actions, like there tend to be with Sam's questionable actions. I don't know why that is, but it is what it is, I guess.

Dean has to take responsibility for everything he does because he, unlike Sam, has never been under supernatural influence when he reacts by hitting. So I guess if the show is trying to make Dean look bad (abusive) this way, then that's the conclusion that will be reached. I guess the writers feel that they should highlight this particular trait of Dean to show that he's a very flawed human being.

Dean does love Sam. He would do anything for Sam. He has died for Sam. But Dean is a hugely flawed person and that much is evident in the way Dean is presented by the show.

Oh well. I still love Dean, mistakes, flaws and all.

[Aeryn]

Jan 24, 2012 21:38:11 GMT -5 Rose said:

Jan 24, 2012 16:43:08 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

I love bad boys!! I mean, look at my avatar and signature pic. That should tell you something.

You're tens? You're the one who always used the color green for your posts on the CW?

I love bad boys too. Especially, bad, naughty frontmen who have green eyes and long, red hair.

Bad boys who tie you down and have their way with you. Bad boys who cause you to have bruises on your knees...

:heart:

[Rose]

Jan 24, 2012 21:55:54 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Jan 24, 2012 21:38:11 GMT -5 Rose said:

I love bad boys too. Especially, bad, naughty frontmen who have green eyes and long, red hair.

Bad boys who tie you down and have their way with you. Bad boys who cause you to have bruises on your knees...

I like it both ways. Tied down, tying them down, claw marks, hair pulling, you know.

[jensenRick]

Jan 23, 2012 13:14:38 GMT -5 Rose said:

Jan 23, 2012 12:51:40 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

No, not really. I had a mood swing and took it out on you.

At least she was being honest.

Fine, I'll give her a point for honesty.

[jensenRick]

Jan 23, 2012 15:56:35 GMT -5 isitfridayyet said:

Jan 23, 2012 12:03:48 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Oh God. Dean isn't an abuser. Yes, he's hit Sam. So? They're brothers. Brothers fight. Brothers disagree. Shit happens.

Don't over analyze it. Eat your Wheaties and stop acting like you're on Dr. Phil's show.

This. (not at Rick though)

Thank you, Friday. I appreciate the proviso.

It seems people keep inferring that I think Dean is an abuser, when I stated quite clearly that I do not.

[Aeryn]

Jan 24, 2012 22:14:36 GMT -5 Rose said:

Jan 24, 2012 21:55:54 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Bad boys who tie you down and have their way with you. Bad boys who cause you to have bruises on your knees...

I like it both ways. Tied down, tying them down, claw marks, hair pulling, you know.

Woo hoo!!! I DO know! :heart:

We should create a club for girls like us. The "We Like It Rough" club.

[jensenRick]

Jan 23, 2012 17:43:58 GMT -5 CaptainBill said:

Right back at you Rick. We know there are dudes that watch the show but the ladies rule the internet, I think Ive seen more guys than girls talk about Jared/Sam’s hair and body. Mulling over this subject I probably confuse my daughters when I teach them under no non-self defense circumstances is hitting ever justified but at the same time they always see me and their uncles say “hello” through kicks in the chests and sucker punches.

Pride. Don’t want to be wrong in front of others (also called saving face) when in your heart you know it was wrong. People erroneously think that admitting to one’s wrong will weaken them in the eyes of another, in some cases that is true if the other is a predator. But most times it’s the start of actual communication. Sam’s failure to fight back or defend himself makes the situation worse because his passivity (unknowingly to Sam) will feel like a twisting knife to Dean, which increases the anger and leads to projecting his issues onto Sam, saying Sam is self righteous and has anger issues when we saw very few evidence of it. It was a teaching moment for me to my daughters in explaining to them not to take to heart what an angry-depressed man say about them.

Yes, as others already said this is a fictional show but we still apply moral standards to the characters' actions, even to the supernatural ones. Castiel defenders try to use this character's non-human-soulless-status to downplay his actions, in that case all demons and monsters on the show should be defended to the tee as well. RoboSam was essentially a sociopath and both in the civilians and hunters' world dictate that he must be put down once his actions crossed the line even though we completely understood his drive to survive at all cost.

Thank you for the interesting and well-thought out reply. I totally agree with you about Sam not fighting back can exacerbate the situation. And the very real and STRONG affect that pride has- on both Dean and Sam's actions.

In the interest of dispelling the idea that I'm "picking on Dean", as I said- it was John's raising that brought so much anger and frustration to the brother's lives, so it certainly affects Sam too. In fact, as I thought about it afterwards, Sam has some violent tendencies himself, when provoked. I'm thinking in particular of the scene at the end of "It's a Terrible Life"- that's not how a well adjusted person quits their job.
Also the scene in "Sam, Interrrupted" showed how violently over the top Sam can get.

I don't get however, where the idea comes from that Sam "verbally assaults" people, Dean or anyone for that mattter. (shrug) If anything, I often think Sam is too meek about speaking his mind, which leads to trouble because then he doesn't speak until he's already way pissed off.

I also tip my hat to you, being a good dad, engaged in raising your daughters in this day and age. I hear that that can't be easy. That on top of being a dude who loves SPN, and likes to discuss it, makes you one of my new heros.

(hope that didn't come out too much like Amy Farrah Fowler- and more bonus hero points to you if you get that reference)

[spoilerwolf]

*raises hand* I know the reference!!!!

[Rose]

Jan 24, 2012 22:29:38 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Jan 24, 2012 22:14:36 GMT -5 Rose said:

I like it both ways. Tied down, tying them down, claw marks, hair pulling, you know.

Woo hoo!!! I DO know!

We should create a club for girls like us. The "We Like It Rough" club.

I'm game!

[jensenRick]

Jan 24, 2012 22:42:24 GMT -5 spoilerwolf said:

*raises hand* I know the reference!!!!

I knew you would, bestie!

[jensenRick]

Jan 24, 2012 1:10:23 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

Jan 23, 2012 16:00:25 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

just as sam will say some harsh things to dean ( and no, sam isnt always under some spell or addiction when he says them.)

I would really appreciate it -and I'm not saying it with any sarcasm at all- if you could bring some examples where Sam said hurtful things to Dean, besides the time he was under the Siren's spell, because honestly as much as I tried, I can't remember a single time. Some of my examples for Dean though:
-In Metamorphosis, when he told Sam that if he didn't know him, he would wanna hunt him
-WTLB, where he told him that he was a monster
-Sympathy For The Devil, when he told him that he can't trust him anymore
-PONR, in the beginning when Sam tells him that he has to stop him, he tells him "you're not hooked up on demon blood this time" and later in the panic room he tells him that he doesn't have faith in him and that he thinks that eventually Sam will say "yes" to Lucifer

I could mention some more, but these are the worst for me. Because in all these scenes you could see Sam tearing up after listening to Dean telling him those things. (In SFTD he didn't exactly tear up, but you could see the pain in his eyes and how his look instantly changed)

My thoughts exactly! I still have trouble forgiving Dean for what he said in Metamorphosis- that is the most hurtful Dean has ever (or COULD ever) said!
I mean talk about verbally bitchslapping someone!

And I'm not even counting all the more teasing remarks over the years, the "geek", "poindexter", "wierdo", "the last time Dad thought you were a boy" and my personal fave "this is how you wasted four years of your life"

[jensenRick]

Jan 24, 2012 1:21:00 GMT -5 @pentadactyl said:

I don't think the relationship is abusive.

It's difficult for me to exactly describe why I don't see it as such. I think, at least from our lay perspective, that it's a much more subjective matter than it's been treated as at times in this discussion. That is, I don't think it's abusive, but I think this attitude that that's something that can be proven by some hard and fast rule of 'this is what an abuser is' and 'this is what a victim is' is too simplistic. People come in many shades and so do relationships.

I don't think 'abusers don't love their victims' works as a rule that applies in every single case. People have screwed up emotions and screwed up definitions of love. And if you're messed up enough to abuse someone, I'd bet even higher that your emotions get even messier and more nonsensical.

Other people have mentioned that 'the victim doesn't mind' and 'the victim can take it' are flawed rules too.

I'm not sure I buy 'that's what men do' either. All my life I've only once seen a guy take a swing and he was so drunk he couldn't stand. I'll allow that I'm a nerd and mostly hang out with other nerds. But I think of most of the guys I know and I think getting punched in the face would be a big deal and them punching someone in the face would be a big deal. I don't think it works to just dismiss it offhand as 'a guy thing'.

Maybe it's a TV thing. I don't know if I wouldn't think a abusive relationship if it weren't fictional. I suspect I still wouldn't, but I could believe that was a factor.


Speaking of television exaggerating violence, this latest season has at times reveled in Dean's violent nature that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with. In the past, whether or not he should have, what it means for the relationship and other questions aside, I've mostly felt that the punches were appropriate to the reaction they were trying to get from the audience. I felt the aim was to shock, to emphasize the gravity of the situation. This year, it's felt like what they're going for is a cheer. The punch in TGND, the threat against the new age cafe guy, the organ donation guy. Every time, I felt like they were trying to get me to throw my fist in the air and say "Yeah!!" and that wasn't what I was feeling at all.

What an excellent post. I totally agree with everything you said.
As I've said before, and will repeat now, I never thought Dean was an abuser. But to deny that Dean has very real and strong violent tendencies is just ignoring the truth.

[spoilerwolf]

Jan 24, 2012 22:49:23 GMT -5 jensenRick said:

Jan 24, 2012 22:42:24 GMT -5 spoilerwolf said:

*raises hand* I know the reference!!!!

I knew you would, bestie!

One of the best. shows. ever

[jensenRick]

Jan 24, 2012 23:19:18 GMT -5 spoilerwolf said:

Jan 24, 2012 22:49:23 GMT -5 jensenRick said:

I knew you would, bestie!

One of the best. shows. ever

It really is! :heart:
We should make a thread for it on the main forum

[spoilerwolf]

That we should!