Don't look if you don't want to be offended.

[jensenRick]

My thoughts (for what it's worth) on certain topics brought up.

"Asylum" with Dr. Ellicott- Sam said the cop had a happy marriage, they hardly ever fought and were thinking of having kids. Dr. E gets him to kill his wife, then himself. I'd say that casts doubt on whether his influence just intensified what you really feel.
But let's say that it does. That would mean that Sam might have thought these things, but he had NEVER said them- until Dr. E.
Not exactly evidence of Sam's tendency to verbal bitchslap.

The same thing with the Siren in "Sex & Violence." Obviously the siren's influence was extreme, or are we to believe Dean wanted to cut off Sam's head with an ax? In this case however, I do think Sam was saying what he really thought. Again, he NEVER would have, if it hadn't been for the siren. I believe that's because Sam, when under his own power, DOES give consideration for Dean's feelings before he speaks.

Yes, in "Fallen Idols," Sam was saying what he really thinks. He also had a very real and valid point, that Dean needed to hear. I have no problem with what Sam said in that ep, although he could have worded it better. But he'd been pushed past the brink.

As for "When the Levee Breaks," when Sam says "You don't know me. You never did,"- I'd agree that was hurtful, and again I'm positive this not anything Sam would have ever said if he was in his right mind and not hopped up on demon blood.
But it also happens to be true- Dean has demonstrated in eps like "Wishful thinking" that he may love Sam, but he understands little about what makes Sam tick.
For the sake of argument, I want to mention this is also the episode where Dean says, "If you leave, don't you ever come back!" So it's not like he doesn't pay Sam back in spades for every slight.

[spoilerwolf]

Jan 24, 2012 23:44:48 GMT -5 jensenRick said:

My thoughts (for what it's worth) on certain topics brought up.

"Asylum" with Dr. Ellicott- Sam said the cop had a happy marriage, they hardly ever fought and were thinking of having kids. Dr. E gets him to kill his wife, then himself. I'd say that casts doubt on whether his influence just intensified what you really feel.
But let's say that it does. That would mean that Sam might have thought these things, but he had NEVER said them- until Dr. E.
Not exactly evidence of Sam's tendency to verbal bitchslap.

The same thing with the Siren in "Sex & Violence." Obviously the siren's influence was extreme, or are we to believe Dean wanted to cut off Sam's head with an ax? In this case however, I do think Sam was saying what he really thought. Again, he NEVER would have, if it hadn't been for the siren. I believe that's because Sam, when under his own power, DOES give consideration for Dean's feelings before he speaks.

Yes, in "Fallen Idols," Sam was saying what he really thinks. He also had a very real and valid point, that Dean needed to hear. I have no problem with what Sam said in that ep, although he could have worded it better. But he'd been pushed past the brink.

As for "When the Levee Breaks," when Sam says "You don't know me. You never did,"- I'd agree that was hurtful, and again I'm positive this not anything Sam would have ever said if he was in his right mind and not hopped up on demon blood.
But it also happens to be true- Dean has demonstrated in eps like "Wishful thinking" that he may love Sam, but he understands little about what makes Sam tick.
For the sake of argument, I want to mention this is also the episode where Dean says, "If you leave, don't you ever come back!" So it's not like he doesn't pay Sam back in spades for every slight.

WORD. To everything you said.

[CaptainBill]

Jan 24, 2012 22:34:48 GMT -5 jensenRick said:

Thank you for the interesting and well-thought out reply. I totally agree with you about Sam not fighting back can exacerbate the situation. And the very real and STRONG affect that pride has- on both Dean and Sam's actions.

In the interest of dispelling the idea that I'm "picking on Dean", as I said- it was John's raising that brought so much anger and frustration to the brother's lives, so it certainly affects Sam too. In fact, as I thought about it afterwards, Sam has some violent tendencies himself, when provoked. I'm thinking in particular of the scene at the end of "It's a Terrible Life"- that's not how a well adjusted person quits their job.
Also the scene in "Sam, Interrrupted" showed how violently over the top Sam can get.

Had to google Amy Farrah Fowler, sadly haven't seen the show ever since Sheldon convinced his friends to go to Antarctica. I have to assume they are no longer in Antarctica.

Thanks Rick, you're very kind and it remains to be seen about the "good dad" part, last year had a you-might-become-a-grandfather major scare and I wasn't 40 yet! My brothers and me perpetuated every movie stereotypes out there by showing up at the boy's house and demanded to know that he and his parents are going to do about it. At least we left the shotguns and glocks behind in the trucks.

I agree that Sam doesn't "verbally assault" people unless under supernatural influence or pushed beyond his tolerance level. Sam is a bit too meek when it comes to speaking his mind, which is why I relished roboSam's unfiltered voice and his hilarious rationalization for "doing it in the dark". RoboSam wasn't evil, he just didn't care and at the same time he tried very hard to fit in and please Dean. I think for Dean's sake roboSam had to happen if Dean was ever going to get past his abandonment issues with Sam. Dean need to experience a Sam who didn't love or care about him but still stays with him, and compare this to the real Sam who does love him and that his independence is not a form of abandonment of Dean.

Your mentioning "Sam Interrupted" reminded me of another discussion I had with the kids about the difference between empathy and well meaning people. Sam's "over the top violence" was kind of out of the blue. Sam said in that episode that he has anger issues, which Dean's advice to bottle it up. But why does Sam have anger issues in the first place? Anybody who has been around non-empathetic or well-meaning people alot can tell you that it has two major effects on them. First the empathic person work hard at relating to other people and learning to put himself in their shoes. The other effect is the empathic person has anger management problems, because he spent much of his time hurt and angry at the people around him who seemed to care so little for his or anyone else’s feelings.

Dean does have empathy, but he's one of those well-meaning people who simply makes life difficult. These people you have to draw strict boundaries and say, “this is what I’m willing to do for this person, this is what I’m not willing to do, and this is how much time I’m willing to give them.” (Bobby's numerous tough love speech to Dean) Otherwise they tend to take and take and take, without ever even realizing that what they’re asking for is exhausting and unreasonable. You can explain it to them if you like, but they’re almost incapable of seeing things from your perspective and they probably will never or rarely get it. Sam, unfortunately, rarely draws boundaries with Dean and he made the little brother mistake of admitting his idolization and telling Dean "I would do anything for you." Oh boy, no good ever comes from that.

Like you, I do not believe I'm picking on Dean but I understand how it can seem like it. This is one of the great consequences of making the show mostly told from Dean's POV.

[jensenRick]

Jan 24, 2012 23:50:14 GMT -5 spoilerwolf said:

Jan 24, 2012 23:44:48 GMT -5 jensenRick said:

My thoughts (for what it's worth) on certain topics brought up.

"Asylum" with Dr. Ellicott- Sam said the cop had a happy marriage, they hardly ever fought and were thinking of having kids. Dr. E gets him to kill his wife, then himself. I'd say that casts doubt on whether his influence just intensified what you really feel.
But let's say that it does. That would mean that Sam might have thought these things, but he had NEVER said them- until Dr. E.
Not exactly evidence of Sam's tendency to verbal bitchslap.

The same thing with the Siren in "Sex & Violence." Obviously the siren's influence was extreme, or are we to believe Dean wanted to cut off Sam's head with an ax? In this case however, I do think Sam was saying what he really thought. Again, he NEVER would have, if it hadn't been for the siren. I believe that's because Sam, when under his own power, DOES give consideration for Dean's feelings before he speaks.

Yes, in "Fallen Idols," Sam was saying what he really thinks. He also had a very real and valid point, that Dean needed to hear. I have no problem with what Sam said in that ep, although he could have worded it better. But he'd been pushed past the brink.

As for "When the Levee Breaks," when Sam says "You don't know me. You never did,"- I'd agree that was hurtful, and again I'm positive this not anything Sam would have ever said if he was in his right mind and not hopped up on demon blood.
But it also happens to be true- Dean has demonstrated in eps like "Wishful thinking" that he may love Sam, but he understands little about what makes Sam tick.
For the sake of argument, I want to mention this is also the episode where Dean says, "If you leave, don't you ever come back!" So it's not like he doesn't pay Sam back in spades for every slight.

WORD. To everything you said.

And that's why we need to be besties! I :heart: SW

[spoilerwolf]

Besties!!!!

[jensenRick]

Jan 25, 2012 0:08:19 GMT -5 CaptainBill said:

Jan 24, 2012 22:34:48 GMT -5 jensenRick said:

Thank you for the interesting and well-thought out reply. I totally agree with you about Sam not fighting back can exacerbate the situation. And the very real and STRONG affect that pride has- on both Dean and Sam's actions.

In the interest of dispelling the idea that I'm "picking on Dean", as I said- it was John's raising that brought so much anger and frustration to the brother's lives, so it certainly affects Sam too. In fact, as I thought about it afterwards, Sam has some violent tendencies himself, when provoked. I'm thinking in particular of the scene at the end of "It's a Terrible Life"- that's not how a well adjusted person quits their job.
Also the scene in "Sam, Interrrupted" showed how violently over the top Sam can get.

Had to google Amy Farrah Fowler, sadly haven't seen the show ever since Sheldon convinced his friends to go to Antarctica. I have to assume they are no longer in Antarctica.

Thanks Rick, you're very kind and it remains to be seen about the "good dad" part, last year had a you-might-become-a-grandfather major scare and I wasn't 40 yet! My brothers and me perpetuated every movie stereotypes out there by showing up at the boy's house and demanded to know that he and his parents are going to do about it. At least we left the shotguns and glocks behind in the trucks.

I agree that Sam doesn't "verbally assault" people unless under supernatural influence or pushed beyond his tolerance level. Sam is a bit too meek when it comes to speaking his mind, which is why I relished roboSam's unfiltered voice and his hilarious rationalization for "doing it in the dark". RoboSam wasn't evil, he just didn't care and at the same time he tried very hard to fit in and please Dean. I think for Dean's sake roboSam had to happen if Dean was ever going to get past his abandonment issues with Sam. Dean need to experience a Sam who didn't love or care about him but still stays with him, and compare this to the real Sam who does love him and that his independence is not a form of abandonment of Dean.

Your mentioning "Sam Interrupted" reminded me of another discussion I had with the kids about the difference between empathy and well meaning people. Sam's "over the top violence" was kind of out of the blue. Sam said in that episode that he has anger issues, which Dean's advice to bottle it up. But why does Sam have anger issues in the first place? Anybody who has been around non-empathetic or well-meaning people alot can tell you that it has two major effects on them. First the empathic person work hard at relating to other people and learning to put himself in their shoes. The other effect is the empathic person has anger management problems, because he spent much of his time hurt and angry at the people around him who seemed to care so little for his or anyone else’s feelings.

Dean does have empathy, but he's one of those well-meaning people who simply makes life difficult. These people you have to draw strict boundaries and say, “this is what I’m willing to do for this person, this is what I’m not willing to do, and this is how much time I’m willing to give them.” (Bobby's numerous tough love speech to Dean) Otherwise they tend to take and take and take, without ever even realizing that what they’re asking for is exhausting and unreasonable. You can explain it to them if you like, but they’re almost incapable of seeing things from your perspective and they probably will never or rarely get it. Sam, unfortunately, rarely draws boundaries with Dean and he made the little brother mistake of admitting his idolization and telling Dean "I would do anything for you." Oh boy, no good ever comes from that.

Like you, I do not believe I'm picking on Dean but I understand how it can seem like it. This is one of the great consequences of making the show mostly told from Dean's POV.

Oh, I just want to draw little :heart: around everything you said. Thank you for that.

I highly recommend checking out Big Bang Theory again- this is one case where the introduction of new characters has really enhanced the show, rather than detracting from the leads. Amy Farrah Fowler (and Bernadette for that matter) have really upped the game, forcing the guys to grow up, PLUS the scenes with just Penny, Amy and Bernadette have been some of the funniest ever!

And you sound like a good dad to me, just by discussing these things with your kids. Maybe if my stepdad had ever considered me more than just a necessary deduction to his paycheck, things might - Oh barf I'm depressing myself. And I've gone wildly off topic, so I'll attempt to correct.

I totally agree with you about Sam's meekness, and how refreshing it was to see Soulless Sam's directness. (for a short time, didn't want too much)
I've also said that I thought the idea for Soulless Sam was give Dean perspective on what it would be like if Sam didn't actually care for him.

I :heart: what you said about the consequences to a empathetic person. I had never thought of it that way, but now that you spelled it out- I think you are EXACTLY right! I couldn't agree more.

On a related note, I've often thought that Sam's inability to get Dean to truly respect him, came not from believing Dean wouldn't want to respect him (it seems Dean does want to respect Sam) but that Sam seems incapable of seeing himself as someone that Dean would respect. I think that feeds into a lot of the times Sam has gone off to do things on his own. Do you see what I mean?

[JazzBeePrime]

Jan 24, 2012 22:57:34 GMT -5 jensenRick said:

Jan 24, 2012 1:10:23 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

I would really appreciate it -and I'm not saying it with any sarcasm at all- if you could bring some examples where Sam said hurtful things to Dean, besides the time he was under the Siren's spell, because honestly as much as I tried, I can't remember a single time. Some of my examples for Dean though:
-In Metamorphosis, when he told Sam that if he didn't know him, he would wanna hunt him
-WTLB, where he told him that he was a monster
-Sympathy For The Devil, when he told him that he can't trust him anymore
-PONR, in the beginning when Sam tells him that he has to stop him, he tells him "you're not hooked up on demon blood this time" and later in the panic room he tells him that he doesn't have faith in him and that he thinks that eventually Sam will say "yes" to Lucifer

I could mention some more, but these are the worst for me. Because in all these scenes you could see Sam tearing up after listening to Dean telling him those things. (In SFTD he didn't exactly tear up, but you could see the pain in his eyes and how his look instantly changed)

My thoughts exactly! I still have trouble forgiving Dean for what he said in Metamorphosis- that is the most hurtful Dean has ever (or COULD ever) said!
I mean talk about verbally bitchslapping someone!

And I'm not even counting all the more teasing remarks over the years, the "geek", "poindexter", "wierdo", "the last time Dad thought you were a boy" and my personal fave "this is how you wasted four years of your life"

now we're turning this into a "which brother's words hurt more" debate. this is NOT the point i was making, so let's not go there, ok? the origional point i was making is that you cannot critique or pass judgement on just one brother. they are BOTH flawed. they BOTH have emotional boiling points, and they will BOTH, once in a blue moon, lash out at each other. dean throws the occsional right hook and sam throws the occasional verbal bitchslap. that's not saying that sam doesn't rarely punch dean, or that dean doesn't say something hurtful to sam. they BOTH do it. it's just that when they're boiling points are reached, dean is more physical where sam is more verbal. your referances to dean calling sam a 'geek' , 'poindexter', 'weirdo' and so on, those are brotherly jabs, and they BOTH do that. sam KNOWS dean is being a smartass. it's the same as when they call each other 'bitch' and 'jerk'. there's no malice behind it. it's just 2 brothers being brothers.

[MariaARIS3]

Jan 25, 2012 15:14:12 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

now we're turning this into a "which brother's words hurt more" debate. this is NOT the point i was making, so let's not go there, ok? the origional point i was making is that you cannot critique or pass judgement on just one brother. they are BOTH flawed. they BOTH have emotional boiling points, and they will BOTH, once in a blue moon, lash out at each other. dean throws the occsional right hook and sam throws the occasional verbal bitchslap. that's not saying that sam doesn't rarely punch dean, or that dean doesn't say something hurtful to sam. they BOTH do it. it's just that when they're boiling points are reached, dean is more physical where sam is more verbal. your referances to dean calling sam a 'geek' , 'poindexter', 'weirdo' and so on, those are brotherly jabs, and they BOTH do that. sam KNOWS dean is being a smartass. it's the same as when they call each other 'bitch' and 'jerk'. there's no malice behind it. it's just 2 brothers being brothers.

But that's the thing, that Sam has never punched Dean except the times they fought each other and by the examples I gave here I was simply showing that Sam isn't more verbal than Dean. Sam reacts by going away, not by verbally bitchslapping Dean.
There is not doubt that both brothers have flaws, I don't think anyone here implied that Sam is Mr. Perfect. But you're right, this thread is turning into a "which is the better (or which is the worse) brother" so, I'm backing off...

[JazzBeePrime]

MARIA- i wasn't saying one is more verbal than the other. what i was saying is that when their emotional boiling points are reached, once in a long while, dean will throw a right hook while sam will use a verbal right hook. they each vent in different ways. you do bring up another way in which sam reacts when emotionally charged. every once in awhile, he'll take off. most the time, he doesn't even tell dean where he's going. another prime example of how they each deal with things differently.

[DeanandSam]

Jan 25, 2012 16:29:14 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

MARIA- i wasn't saying one is more verbal than the other. what i was saying is that when their emotional boiling points are reached, once in a long while, dean will throw a right hook while sam will use a verbal right hook. they each vent in different ways. you do bring up another way in which sam reacts when emotionally charged. every once in awhile, he'll take off. most the time, he doesn't even tell dean where he's going. another prime example of how they each deal with things differently.

I have to say, in real life, sometimes the verbal abuse is more harder to shake than the physical. The bruise will eventually heal, but the words that you use will leave a lasting scar. Not saying either brother is abusive whether physical or verbal, but just saying.

[JazzBeePrime]

deanandsam, i completely agree with you on that point. words sometimes can hurt a hell of alot more, and leave emotional scars that take forever to heal.

[SoCal]

Hey, come on.....in "Metamorphosis" Dean said that only after he saw Sam teaming up with Ruby to use his mind to exorcise people. And it was right after Castiel had zapped Dean back from 1978 and said to him...."if you don't stop him.....WE WILL."

I think that's a damn good reason for Dean to have said what he did.

[Rose]

No it isn't.

[SoCal]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think Dean was scared out of his mind for Sam. He saw him doing something that other hunters (Gordan comes to mind) would see as demonic and want to kill him.
"If I didn't know you, I would want to hunt you."

[MariaARIS3]

Jan 25, 2012 16:38:25 GMT -5 DeanandSam said:

I have to say, in real life, sometimes the verbal abuse is more harder to shake than the physical. The bruise will eventually heal, but the words that you use will leave a lasting scar. Not saying either brother is abusive whether physical or verbal, but just saying.

To be honest, I have the same opinion, but then again I guess that if you asked somone who was physically abused everyday (usually a woman or a child) I'm sure they would say that they'd take verbal abuse over physical any time! Then again, I think that in real life these victims are under both kinds of abuse...

[JazzBeePrime]

Jan 25, 2012 17:10:34 GMT -5 SoCal said:

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think Dean was scared out of his mind for Sam. He saw him doing something that other hunters (Gordan comes to mind) would see as demonic and want to kill him.
"If I didn't know you, I would want to hunt you."

SOCAL- i will have to agree to agree with you it also seemed to me that dean said that out of fear for sam and what could happen to him, then as him being intentionally mean. i felt the same way when dean told sam he feared that sam was heading down the road to becoming a monster. it was based more out of fear then anger. granted, there have been times when dean has said some mean things to sam, and vice versa.

[Rose]

Jan 25, 2012 17:10:34 GMT -5 SoCal said:

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think Dean was scared out of his mind for Sam. He saw him doing something that other hunters (Gordan comes to mind) would see as demonic and want to kill him.
"If I didn't know you, I would want to hunt you."

I don't really care if he was scared to death or not. I've never snapped down my family members' throats or said anything with that much venom. He literally tells Sam how far from normal, from human he's gone and hits him twice and goes on to tell him if he didn't know him, he would want to hunt him, and that's justifiable?
Why? Because Sam thought he was doing the right thing by saving people's lives by using his curse he has to pull demons from innocent people and keeping them alive?

Sam wasn't even drinking demon blood at this point. He was just pulling. Sam was terrified to tell Dean. He was terrified of what Dean would think, and Sam wanted to tell him at the right moment, he just didn't know when or how. I know exactly how that feels because I've been terrified to tell people I love about something going on in my life, for free they'd tear me down. Nobody should have to feel like that. Oh no. I just said something that could be perceived as negative toward Dean. *waits for the smiting to begin*

[isitfridayyet]

Jan 25, 2012 18:56:50 GMT -5 Rose said:

Jan 25, 2012 17:10:34 GMT -5 SoCal said:

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think Dean was scared out of his mind for Sam. He saw him doing something that other hunters (Gordan comes to mind) would see as demonic and want to kill him.
"If I didn't know you, I would want to hunt you."

I don't really care if he was scared to death or not. I've never snapped down my family members' throats or said anything with that much venom. He literally tells Sam how far from normal, from human he's gone and hits him twice and goes on to tell him if he didn't know him, he would want to hunt him, and that's justifiable?
Why? Because Sam thought he was doing the right thing by saving people's lives by using his curse he has to pull demons from innocent people and keeping them alive?

Sam wasn't even drinking demon blood at this point. He was just pulling. Sam was terrified to tell Dean. He was terrified of what Dean would think, and Sam wanted to tell him at the right moment, he just didn't know when or how. I know exactly how that feels because I've been terrified to tell people I love about something going on in my life, for free they'd tear me down. Nobody should have to feel like that. Oh no. I just said something that could be perceived as negative toward Dean. *waits for the smiting to begin*

*smites*

[Rose]

Jan 25, 2012 19:00:33 GMT -5 isitfridayyet said:

Jan 25, 2012 18:56:50 GMT -5 Rose said:

I don't really care if he was scared to death or not. I've never snapped down my family members' throats or said anything with that much venom. He literally tells Sam how far from normal, from human he's gone and hits him twice and goes on to tell him if he didn't know him, he would want to hunt him, and that's justifiable?
Why? Because Sam thought he was doing the right thing by saving people's lives by using his curse he has to pull demons from innocent people and keeping them alive?

Sam wasn't even drinking demon blood at this point. He was just pulling. Sam was terrified to tell Dean. He was terrified of what Dean would think, and Sam wanted to tell him at the right moment, he just didn't know when or how. I know exactly how that feels because I've been terrified to tell people I love about something going on in my life, for free they'd tear me down. Nobody should have to feel like that. Oh no. I just said something that could be perceived as negative toward Dean. *waits for the smiting to begin*

*smites*

*smites back*

[JazzBeePrime]

rocketqueen- if you're expecting me to smite you, you're going to be waiting alooonnnggg time . you're entitled to you're opinion . i just agree to disagree with you about that entire scene. we just saw the scene from different perspectives. as i've been saying all along, BOTH boys have their flaws. BOTH have their own ways of dealing when their emotions goto the extreme. i'm not going to get into a huge debate about which brother is more hurtful towards the other, because both are equally as guilty. i will not, however, let this get all turned around into a 'brother bash' party (this goes for both brothes). i'm sorry, but both have their flaws, both have their own ways of venting on the other one, both have said and done some crappy things to each other.

[pentadactyl]

Jan 25, 2012 19:17:50 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

i'm not going to get into a huge debate about which brother is more hurtful towards the other, because both are equally as guilty.

[/img] [/quote]

Claiming that it's exactly equal IS 'getting into a huge debate about which brother is more hurtful towards the other.'

You want to claim it's all insignificant, that it all falls well below an acceptable limit, fine. I'll agree with you on that count. In fact, from what I've seen, most people on this thread do.

But claiming it's exactly equal is a definitive claim, just as much as saying one or the other is more. And that gets us into a mess with regards to proving that Dean's violence is balanced out by some way in which Sam acts worse towards him, going right back to 'more hurtful towards the other' territory.

[JazzBeePrime]

if they're equally as guilty, then one's actions ISN'T worse than the other. i've never seen either brother as being worse than the other. both are guilty of saying and doing some hurtful things to the other. every once in awhile, they drive each other to emotional extremes. this climaxes in dean physically punching sam ,or sam verbally punching dean. they are both equally as guilty in that sense.one isn't worse or more guilty than the other. hence, they are both equally as guilty.

[pentadactyl]

Jan 25, 2012 19:45:35 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

if they're equally as guilty, then one's actions ISN'T worse than the other. i've never seen either brother as being worse than the other. both are guilty of saying and doing some hurtful things to the other. every once in awhile, they drive each other to emotional extremes. this climaxes in dean physically punching sam ,or sam verbally punching dean. they are both equally as guilty in that sense.one isn't worse or more guilty than the other. hence, they are both equally as guilty.

No. You didn't get what I said.

If they're equal, then things have to balance out exactly. For it to be equal, the claim automatically becomes that Sam throws more 'verbal punches' as you put it, because we can count the physical punches so we know there's an imbalance there.

Dean throws more punches than Sam and Sam and Dean say the same amount of mean things does not add up to equal.

But things don't have to be equal to be ok.

Alice, Bob and Charlie have a box of 10 cookies. Alice eats one cookie, Bob eats two. Charlie says Bob ate all the cookies. Bob says Alice and I ate an equal amount of cookies. Bob is wrong. One is not equal to two. But two is also not equal to all. Charlie is wrong too.

Dean and Sam don't have to exactly equal for Dean's actions not to be abusive.

[1027phoenix]

Jan 24, 2012 23:44:48 GMT -5 jensenRick said:

My thoughts (for what it's worth) on certain topics brought up.

"Asylum" with Dr. Ellicott- Sam said the cop had a happy marriage, they hardly ever fought and were thinking of having kids. Dr. E gets him to kill his wife, then himself. I'd say that casts doubt on whether his influence just intensified what you really feel.
But let's say that it does. That would mean that Sam might have thought these things, but he had NEVER said them- until Dr. E.
Not exactly evidence of Sam's tendency to verbal bitchslap.

The same thing with the Siren in "Sex & Violence." Obviously the siren's influence was extreme, or are we to believe Dean wanted to cut off Sam's head with an ax? In this case however, I do think Sam was saying what he really thought. Again, he NEVER would have, if it hadn't been for the siren. I believe that's because Sam, when under his own power, DOES give consideration for Dean's feelings before he speaks.

Yes, in "Fallen Idols," Sam was saying what he really thinks. He also had a very real and valid point, that Dean needed to hear. I have no problem with what Sam said in that ep, although he could have worded it better. But he'd been pushed past the brink.

As for "When the Levee Breaks," when Sam says "You don't know me. You never did,"- I'd agree that was hurtful, and again I'm positive this not anything Sam would have ever said if he was in his right mind and not hopped up on demon blood.
But it also happens to be true- Dean has demonstrated in eps like "Wishful thinking" that he may love Sam, but he understands little about what makes Sam tick.
For the sake of argument, I want to mention this is also the episode where Dean says, "If you leave, don't you ever come back!" So it's not like he doesn't pay Sam back in spades for every slight.

Absolutely correct. Thank you.

[CaptainBill]

Jan 25, 2012 0:42:23 GMT -5 jensenRick said:

On a related note, I've often thought that Sam's inability to get Dean to truly respect him, came not from believing Dean wouldn't want to respect him (it seems Dean does want to respect Sam) but that Sam seems incapable of seeing himself as someone that Dean would respect. I think that feeds into a lot of the times Sam has gone off to do things on his own. Do you see what I mean?

Hey Rick, I’m sorry about the non existence relationship between the step father and you. No matter how old we are we still want a parent. When one parent fails we tend to hold on to the other parent with teeth and nails and make every excuse under the sun to salvage the relationship with the last remaining parent when in fact we are simply choosing the lesser of two evils. Okay, enough of that downer.

Talking stuff out with Dean doesn’t work 90% of the time so I can see why Sam takes off like he did in “Girl Next Door”, not only he wants to resolve a possible mistake he made years earlier but also he knew Dean wouldn’t listen to him. When Dean said “okay” to Sam’s plea to trust him about Amy, Sam looked so surprised and relieved that the scene broke my little black heart. Maybe Sam shouldn’t have left like that and caused Dean to nearly go out of his mind with worry, but it did effectively showed Dean that Sam can manage his mental illness and that he’s not dangerous; Sam couldn’t verbally convince Dean of that, only his actions could get that message across to his brother.

I agree that Dean wants to respect Sam, but when your little brother/pseudo son is the target of every worse things in the world (including from your so-called best friend) it tends blinds Dean to the person Sam is. Sam’s line that Dean doesn’t know him is correct, Dean doesn’t really know his brother and in all honesty I don’t think he wants to know. Dean would not be a unique individual in real life, there are a lot of men that don’t need or want to know much about their life partners. It’s one of the many reasons why models/muses are popular with men but the same cannot be said for women.

[JazzBeePrime]

Jan 25, 2012 21:26:55 GMT -5 @pentadactyl said:

Jan 25, 2012 19:45:35 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

if they're equally as guilty, then one's actions ISN'T worse than the other. i've never seen either brother as being worse than the other. both are guilty of saying and doing some hurtful things to the other. every once in awhile, they drive each other to emotional extremes. this climaxes in dean physically punching sam ,or sam verbally punching dean. they are both equally as guilty in that sense.one isn't worse or more guilty than the other. hence, they are both equally as guilty.
No. You didn't get what I said.

If they're equal, then things have to balance out exactly. For it to be equal, the claim automatically becomes that Sam throws more 'verbal punches' as you put it, because we can count the physical punches so we know there's an imbalance there.

Dean throws more punches than Sam and Sam and Dean say the same amount of mean things does not add up to equal.

But things don't have to be equal to be ok.

Alice, Bob and Charlie have a box of 10 cookies. Alice eats one cookie, Bob eats two. Charlie says Bob ate all the cookies. Bob says Alice and I ate an equal amount of cookies. Bob is wrong. One is not equal to two. But two is also not equal to all. Charlie is wrong too.

Dean and Sam don't have to exactly equal for Dean's actions not to be abusive.

i'm not getting into a pointless philosophical debate with you dude. it's "pointless" because we're never going to agree. i think you're being way too analytical. YOU are actually missing MY entire point, which has NOTHING to do with who has punched who more or who has verbally bitchslapped who more. the entire point was THEY BOTH HAVE DONE IT.HENCE, THEY ARE BOTH EQUALLY GUILTY OF HURTING THE OTHER PNE. it doesn't matter HOW they have hurt each other, but rather that they have BOTH hurt each other. in which case, yes, they are BOTH equally as guilty. so, i will agree to disagree with you and move on.

[pentadactyl]

You're right, it does appear to be a lost cause.

[JazzBeePrime]

it's not a lost cause, as that would be an insult. lets just call it an impass and move on.

[Aeryn]

Jan 24, 2012 22:49:13 GMT -5 Rose said:

Jan 24, 2012 22:29:38 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Woo hoo!!! I DO know!

We should create a club for girls like us. The "We Like It Rough" club.

I'm game!

Hell yeah!!

[Rose]

What's up with all the yelling to get a point across? Is it really necessary?

@aeryn, let's do it!