Don't look if you don't want to be offended.

[Rose]

Jan 22, 2012 0:51:16 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Jan 22, 2012 0:46:23 GMT -5 Rose said:

A couple of pairs, actually. Including some furry ones. You should come over sometime, sugar and I might let you take a peek in my special chest of goodies.

Whoa.

Every girl should have handcuffs, a blindfold, and lots of flavored oil for those "special" moments.

Wow... I think I was a bit drunk last night...

But that I will agree with!

[Aeryn]

Jan 22, 2012 10:12:34 GMT -5 Rose said:

Jan 22, 2012 0:51:16 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Whoa.

Every girl should have handcuffs, a blindfold, and lots of flavored oil for those "special" moments.

Wow... I think I was a bit drunk last night...

But that I will agree with!

And I was completely sober, which amazes me.

[Rose]

Hah! Better than me. I was pretty messed up last night according to hubby.

Hmmm... I wonder why my karma keeps going down? Somebody here must really not like me and is expressing that by taking it down. lol

[DeanandSam]

Jan 22, 2012 15:38:14 GMT -5 Rose said:

Hah! Better than me. I was pretty messed up last night according to hubby.

Hmmm... I wonder why my karma keeps going down? Somebody here must really not like me and is expressing that by taking it down. lol

Lol it's not me if that is what your thinking, I even gave back Aeryn's Karma like I said I would yesturday

Gave you a Karma... Because it's a pity Karma

[Rose]

Jan 22, 2012 16:09:12 GMT -5 DeanandSam said:

Jan 22, 2012 15:38:14 GMT -5 Rose said:

Hah! Better than me. I was pretty messed up last night according to hubby.

Hmmm... I wonder why my karma keeps going down? Somebody here must really not like me and is expressing that by taking it down. lol

Lol it's not me if that is what your thinking, I even gave back Aeryn's Karma like I said I would yesturday

Gave you a Karma... Because it's a pity Karma

LOL No! I didn't think it was you! I have a sneaky suspicion on who it is though. xD Nah, you're cool as hell DeanandSam and I like and respect you, your posts and your threads. All is cool and thanks for the "pity karma" or whatever.

[Aeryn]

Jan 22, 2012 15:38:14 GMT -5 Rose said:

Hah! Better than me. I was pretty messed up last night according to hubby.

Hmmm... I wonder why my karma keeps going down? Somebody here must really not like me and is expressing that by taking it down. lol

I used to be wasted most of the time...but recently I realized I might be in love with a guy...and he's never seen me that way. I do NOT want him to ever see me wasted. Ever.

The whole karma thing is amusing. I spent most of one day smiting LC every hour, on the hour.

[Rose]

Jan 22, 2012 16:54:29 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Jan 22, 2012 15:38:14 GMT -5 Rose said:

Hah! Better than me. I was pretty messed up last night according to hubby.

Hmmm... I wonder why my karma keeps going down? Somebody here must really not like me and is expressing that by taking it down. lol

I used to be wasted most of the time...but recently I realized I might be in love with a guy...and he's never seen me that way. I do NOT want him to ever see me wasted. Ever.

The whole karma thing is amusing. I spent most of one day smiting LC every hour, on the hour.

Haha did you? I only reserve my wasted moments for weekends. Awwww, well I can understand why you wouldn't. I was like that when I first got with my husband, and then one night he sat behind me in the bathroom and held my hair while I puked and rubbed my back and got me water LOL. Don't mix Tequila and Jäger! HAH! It doesn't come back up much better than it goes down.

LOL xD The karma thing is just weird.

[DeanandSam]

Jan 22, 2012 16:36:13 GMT -5 Rose said:

Jan 22, 2012 16:09:12 GMT -5 DeanandSam said:

Lol it's not me if that is what your thinking, I even gave back Aeryn's Karma like I said I would yesturday

Gave you a Karma... Because it's a pity Karma

LOL No! I didn't think it was you! I have a sneaky suspicion on who it is though. xD Nah, you're cool as hell DeanandSam and I like and respect you, your posts and your threads. All is cool and thanks for the "pity karma" or whatever.

Aww, shucks , you are too kind. But I do find the Karma thing to be amusing as well. It's like a popularity contest. Where if you lose a point you make a comment of you donn't care, but really you do Like high school all over again, or how I was told High School is like, A popularity contest.

[zenezie]

Jan 22, 2012 3:59:58 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

Is an abuser actually able to love his victim? I don't think so... We know that Dean loves Sam more than anyone in the world, nobody can't deny that.
I could go on and give even more reasons as to why I don't consider Dean an abuser. But I'll just stick to the one above

Great point, Maria. Abusers always make the claims that they love their victims and hence why they can't control their violence (major eye roll) and yet then the victim is gone, be it by choice or through nefarious reasons, the abusers quickly find another to "love" with no grieving period.

[jensenRick]

Jan 21, 2012 18:52:45 GMT -5 SoCal said:

I'm not trying to start a brother war...never have, never will. I was just pointing out that both of them have had their issues and lashed out at each other. Dean usually punches....once. And Sam usually verbally assaults Dean.

No. Not just no, but Hell No. Sam does not "usually verbally assault" Dean. The times that Sam has said harsh things to Dean, he has been under supernatural influences. If Dean gets his precious feelings hurt over it, that's on Dean, and his own insecurities. Like others said about the hits Sam gets- he should be able to "take it." Dean certainly isn't helpless, and if he really felt put upon, he could just keep on driving. Nuff said?

Personally I don't think Dean is an "abuser" although he is far too fond of using his fists when he hears something he doesn't like.
HOWEVER, it's not because Sam can "take it." Just because someone isn't "helpless" and can withstand the physical beatings they get- doesn't mean that the person doling them out isn't an abuser. This kind of reasoning is why so many physically abused men don't speak out- because they are told they should have been able to "take it" or "fight back." It's not cool.

But again, like I said, I don't actually think of Dean as an abuser, just insecure and emotionally closed off.

[jensenRick]

Jan 22, 2012 3:59:58 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

Before I read anyone else's post I'll give my answer: NO

So, we all know that Dean shows his anger with his fists while Sam shows it by going away. Does this make Dean an abuser?
I'm thinking all the times Dean hit Sam and honestly the only time I find unjustified for hitting Sam was the one in Bloodlust for which he admitted that he was wrong and apologized... For all the others, I can't say I blame him... Sure in some of them he might have overdone it with punching, but none of them was unjustified.

Again, I disagree so strongly, I'm not sure how to put it into words.

Again, I'm not saying Dean is an abuser- but justified in hitting Sam? Seriously? WHEN is someone EVER "justified" in hitting someone, just because they don't like what someone says, and the hitter has nothing to come back with? Just about everytime Dean has hit Sam- it's because Sam said something Dean didn't like, and Dean wanted to shut him up. That is NEVER justification for hitting someone, it is never okay.

I'm sorry, but Dean has never IMO been justified in hitting Sam, except for that one time in Asylum, when he did it to incapacitate Sam. IMO, Dean hits far too much, without need, and almost never apologizes for it.
It's not cool, *however* I understand why he does it- because of his father, and the way he was raised.

[jensenRick]

And another thing! (ooh, I'm HOT now ) It's not just with Sam either, Dean has a pattern of behavior.
I point specifically to the scene in the hospital when Bobby was dying. The organ donor coordinator, doing his job, asks to speak with Dean about the options involved. Dean reacts to hearing something he doesn't like- with his fists, and threats of more.
Now, of course, he's Dean Winchester- UberDude, and Coolest of the Cool- so he gets a pass. But in the real world- hitting people because you don't like what they say, does not make you cool. It's not a emotionally healthy reaction.

[spoilerwolf]

Jan 23, 2012 1:07:00 GMT -5 jensenRick said:

Jan 22, 2012 3:59:58 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

Before I read anyone else's post I'll give my answer: NO

So, we all know that Dean shows his anger with his fists while Sam shows it by going away. Does this make Dean an abuser?
I'm thinking all the times Dean hit Sam and honestly the only time I find unjustified for hitting Sam was the one in Bloodlust for which he admitted that he was wrong and apologized... For all the others, I can't say I blame him... Sure in some of them he might have overdone it with punching, but none of them was unjustified.

Again, I disagree so strongly, I'm not sure how to put it into words.

Again, I'm not saying Dean is an abuser- but justified in hitting Sam? Seriously? WHEN is someone EVER "justified" in hitting someone, just because they don't like what someone says, and the hitter has nothing to come back with? Just about everytime Dean has hit Sam- it's because Sam said something Dean didn't like, and Dean wanted to shut him up. That is NEVER justification for hitting someone, it is never okay.

I'm sorry, but Dean has never IMO been justified in hitting Sam, except for that one time in Asylum, when he did it to incapacitate Sam. IMO, Dean hits far too much, without need, and almost never apologizes for it.
It's not cool, *however* I understand why he does it- because of his father, and the way he was raised.

Well said and I agree. Just because Sam and Dean are "men" doesn't give either one the excuse to hit the other because they're mad. That kind of logic baffles me.

[MariaARIS3]

Jan 23, 2012 1:07:00 GMT -5 jensenRick said:

Again, I disagree so strongly, I'm not sure how to put it into words.

Again, I'm not saying Dean is an abuser- but justified in hitting Sam? Seriously? WHEN is someone EVER "justified" in hitting someone, just because they don't like what someone says, and the hitter has nothing to come back with? Just about everytime Dean has hit Sam- it's because Sam said something Dean didn't like, and Dean wanted to shut him up. That is NEVER justification for hitting someone, it is never okay.

I'm sorry, but Dean has never IMO been justified in hitting Sam, except for that one time in Asylum, when he did it to incapacitate Sam. IMO, Dean hits far too much, without need, and almost never apologizes for it.
It's not cool, *however* I understand why he does it- because of his father, and the way he was raised.

When he found out that Sam was using his powers in season 4, it was justified. For me anyway OK?
When he beat Sam in YCHTT he was justified.He overreacted by continue to hit him when he was unconscious, but he was justify for hitting him in the first place.
In TGND he was once again justified. He knew Sam's fragile condition, he kept calling him without getting an answer and he felt helpless. Many people argued that he shouldn't punch Sam because of the head trauma he already had, but this is a TV show we're talking about, so for me this argument isn't valid.
I don't think Dean's hitting has anything to do with how John raised him, because no matter how much the show is trying to screw John's character, I refuse to see him like that. And except the beating in YCHTT, where Dean obviously lost it by Sam's lies and by the fact that he realized that Sam wasn't exactly Sam, the other two times were because Dean was sick worried about Sam and not just because he didn't agree with what Sam did.

Again, I want to clarify that I don't find hitting in real life justified for any reason. But this is a TV show and I'm judging based on its standards and not on real life.

[MariaARIS3]

Jan 21, 2012 18:52:45 GMT -5 SoCal said:

I'm not trying to start a brother war...never have, never will. I was just pointing out that both of them have had their issues and lashed out at each other. Dean usually punches....once. And Sam usually verbally assaults Dean.

Jan 21, 2012 18:40:26 GMT -5 SoCal said:

Wasn't it Sam who really beat the shit out of Dean at the end of season 4? Not one random punch but a real beat down. And then he said some nasty stuff about Dean knowing nothing about him "never have, never will."
Seems to me Sam gives "as good" as he gets.

This is a point where I'll have to disagree, because I can't recall Sam ever verbally assaulting Dean... It's in Sam's character to keep his mouth shut and just walk away (obviously I'm not counting S & V, where both boys were under the Siren's spell). In fact I'd say that Dean has been way more times hurtful towards Sam regarding words...
As for their fight at the end of season 4, I don't think it's the same as Dean punching Sam. It was a fight, they both punched each other and I consider what Dean said to Sam ("you're a monster") way nastier than Sam telling him that he never knew him. Like I said, as far as verbally abuse comes, Dean has abused Sam way more times and tbh I find this even worse than punching him... (and I'm not talking about that episode only)

[CaptainBill]

I agree with Rick, unless in cases of self defense it is NEVER justified to hit somebody, especially to somebody you profess to love more than life itself. In TV land Dean gets a pass because he is the cool bad boy, but in real life that is never acceptable. Yes my brothers and me get into drag out coffee-table-breaking fights, but the point is we dish it out; Sam doesn't even defend himself most of the time, even when he was roboSam he didn't didn't defend himself or fight back. I do think Dean feels guilt when he does hit and pride keeps him from apologizing, the feeling-guilty flashback scenes in "Defending your Life" included the times when Dean decked Sam.

[jensenRick]

Jan 23, 2012 8:26:18 GMT -5 CaptainBill said:

I agree with Rick, unless in cases of self defense it is NEVER justified to hit somebody, especially to somebody you profess to love more than life itself. In TV land Dean gets a pass because he is the cool bad boy, but in real life that is never acceptable. Yes my brothers and me get into drag out coffee-table-breaking fights, but the point is we dish it out; Sam doesn't even defend himself most of the time, even when he was roboSam he didn't didn't defend himself or fight back. I do think Dean feels guilt when he does hit and pride keeps him from apologizing, the feeling-guilty flashback scenes in "Defending your Life" included the times when Dean decked Sam.

I think you are right, pride is the key factor.

and also- Hi, Bill! It's great to see another dude here!

[MariaARIS3]

Jan 22, 2012 15:38:14 GMT -5 Rose said:

Hah! Better than me. I was pretty messed up last night according to hubby.

Hmmm... I wonder why my karma keeps going down? Somebody here must really not like me and is expressing that by taking it down. lol

You mind if I join you? I must have pissed some people off today, because I was smitten three times withing few hours!

[Aeryn]

Jan 23, 2012 1:27:03 GMT -5 jensenRick said:

And another thing! (ooh, I'm HOT now ) It's not just with Sam either, Dean has a pattern of behavior.
I point specifically to the scene in the hospital when Bobby was dying. The organ donor coordinator, doing his job, asks to speak with Dean about the options involved. Dean reacts to hearing something he doesn't like- with his fists, and threats of more.
Now, of course, he's Dean Winchester- UberDude, and Coolest of the Cool- so he gets a pass. But in the real world- hitting people because you don't like what they say, does not make you cool. It's not a emotionally healthy reaction.

Oh God. Dean isn't an abuser. Yes, he's hit Sam. So? They're brothers. Brothers fight. Brothers disagree. Shit happens.

Don't over analyze it. Eat your Wheaties and stop acting like you're on Dr. Phil's show.

[jensenRick]

Jan 23, 2012 12:03:48 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Oh God. Dean isn't an abuser. Yes, he's hit Sam. So? They're brothers. Brothers fight. Brothers disagree. Shit happens.

Don't over analyze it. Eat your Wheaties and stop acting like you're on Dr. Phil's show.

You obviously didn't even read what I wrote, so . . . .

[Aeryn]

No, not really. I had a mood swing and took it out on you.

[Rose]

Jan 23, 2012 12:51:40 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

No, not really. I had a mood swing and took it out on you.

At least she was being honest.

[Aeryn]

My mood swings are getting better, though.

[isitfridayyet]

Jan 23, 2012 12:03:48 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Jan 23, 2012 1:27:03 GMT -5 jensenRick said:

And another thing! (ooh, I'm HOT now ) It's not just with Sam either, Dean has a pattern of behavior.
I point specifically to the scene in the hospital when Bobby was dying. The organ donor coordinator, doing his job, asks to speak with Dean about the options involved. Dean reacts to hearing something he doesn't like- with his fists, and threats of more.
Now, of course, he's Dean Winchester- UberDude, and Coolest of the Cool- so he gets a pass. But in the real world- hitting people because you don't like what they say, does not make you cool. It's not a emotionally healthy reaction.

Oh God. Dean isn't an abuser. Yes, he's hit Sam. So? They're brothers. Brothers fight. Brothers disagree. Shit happens.

Don't over analyze it. Eat your Wheaties and stop acting like you're on Dr. Phil's show.

This. (not at Rick though)

[JazzBeePrime]

holy crap people. IT'S A TV SHOW! it's not based on reality nor is it based in the real world. the way the boys handle things is completely different from how a real person would handle things.so NO, dean is NOT abusive in any way, shape or form. sam is NOT abusive in any way, shape or form. i'm sorry, but i also have to disagree that the way john raised them, doesn't play into how they react to things. he raised them AS SOLDIERS. he raised them to BURY THEIR EMOTIONS AND MOVE ON. the way they were raised and the crap they've been thru from the time they were small kids has EVERYTHING to do with how they act and react as adults. the way they lash out at each other, every once in a long while, reflects back on that. they both hold in their emotions until it reaches the boiling point. every once in a blue moon, dean will use a right hook on sam, just as sam will say some harsh things to dean ( and no, sam isnt always under some spell or addiction when he says them.) it's just THEIR defense mechanisms, their way of lashing out at each other thru pain fear. it's NORMAL for them. some may not like it, and it may be hard to watch, but it's just how 2 fictional characters deal with their emotions. so why read into it, more then what it is? neither brother is abusive,period.

[isitfridayyet]

Jan 23, 2012 16:00:25 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

holy crap people. IT'S A TV SHOW! it's not based on reality nor is it based in the real world. the way the boys handle things is completely different from how a real person would handle things.so NO, dean is NOT abusive in any way, shape or form. sam is NOT abusive in any way, shape or form. i'm sorry, but i also have to disagree that the way john raised them, doesn't play into how they react to things. he raised them AS SOLDIERS. he raised them to BURY THEIR EMOTIONS AND MOVE ON. the way they were raised and the crap they've been thru from the time they were small kids has EVERYTHING to do with how they act and react as adults. the way they lash out at each other, every once in a long while, reflects back on that. they both hold in their emotions until it reaches the boiling point. every once in a blue moon, dean will use a right hook on sam, just as sam will say some harsh things to dean ( and no, sam isnt always under some spell or addiction when he says them.) it's just THEIR defense mechanisms, their way of lashing out at each other thru pain fear. it's NORMAL for them. some may not like it, and it may be hard to watch, but it's just how 2 fictional characters deal with their emotions. so why read into it, more then what it is? neither brother is abusive,period.

[JazzBeePrime]

lol, ty isitfriday. i just needed to get that off my chest. stepping down off my soapbox now.

[MariaARIS3]

Jan 23, 2012 16:00:25 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

neither brother is abusive,period.

Is that Aeryn's head you're smashing with the hammer?

[CaptainBill]

Jan 23, 2012 9:44:28 GMT -5 jensenRick said:

I think you are right, pride is the key factor.

and also- Hi, Bill! It's great to see another dude here!

Right back at you Rick. We know there are dudes that watch the show but the ladies rule the internet, I think Ive seen more guys than girls talk about Jared/Sam’s hair and body. Mulling over this subject I probably confuse my daughters when I teach them under no non-self defense circumstances is hitting ever justified but at the same time they always see me and their uncles say “hello” through kicks in the chests and sucker punches.

Pride. Don’t want to be wrong in front of others (also called saving face) when in your heart you know it was wrong. People erroneously think that admitting to one’s wrong will weaken them in the eyes of another, in some cases that is true if the other is a predator. But most times it’s the start of actual communication. Sam’s failure to fight back or defend himself makes the situation worse because his passivity (unknowingly to Sam) will feel like a twisting knife to Dean, which increases the anger and leads to projecting his issues onto Sam, saying Sam is self righteous and has anger issues when we saw very few evidence of it. It was a teaching moment for me to my daughters in explaining to them not to take to heart what an angry-depressed man say about them.

Yes, as others already said this is a fictional show but we still apply moral standards to the characters' actions, even to the supernatural ones. Castiel defenders try to use this character's non-human-soulless-status to downplay his actions, in that case all demons and monsters on the show should be defended to the tee as well. RoboSam was essentially a sociopath and both in the civilians and hunters' world dictate that he must be put down once his actions crossed the line even though we completely understood his drive to survive at all cost.

[JazzBeePrime]

Jan 23, 2012 17:35:05 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

Jan 23, 2012 16:00:25 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

neither brother is abusive,period.

Is that Aeryn's head you're smashing with the hammer?

nope, that would be me smashing my own frustration