Don't look if you don't want to be offended.

[DeanandSam]

Alright I guess we can say Dean isn't an abuser per say. To some extent I think he is very violent. Take the pounding he gave soulless Sam for example. He punched him over 14 times, I think, it's probably less, I can't remember. Now we know it wasn't Sam, but it was still Sam's body that Dean was causing harm too. He kept punching and punching without being shy of doing that. Does that excuse Dean just because it wasn't really Sam? I think Dean kept on punching him because Dean was just fed up and frustrated. Having his brother back and thinking he is A-okay, than to find out that he wasn't. Another moment in Dean's life where nothing is simple enough, it's always hard. So punching soul-less Sam at that point was him venting his emotions, but also trying to get Soul-less Sam to become unconscious. But it was still hard to watch, because it was still Sam's body, and still Sam, just Sam without his soul. What do you think?

[Aeryn]

Jan 23, 2012 17:35:05 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

Jan 23, 2012 16:00:25 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

neither brother is abusive,period.

Is that Aeryn's head you're smashing with the hammer?

You'd like that, wouldn't you?

[Aeryn]

Jan 23, 2012 18:03:17 GMT -5 DeanandSam said:

Take the pounding he gave soulless Sam for example.

Now, that sounds sexy.

[DeanandSam]

Jan 23, 2012 18:40:54 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Jan 23, 2012 18:03:17 GMT -5 DeanandSam said:

Take the pounding he gave soulless Sam for example.

Now, that sounds sexy.

...........................

[1027phoenix]

I agree with the posters who said it is wrong to punch someone just because you don't agree with something they've said or done.
What makes it worse for me is it makes me wonder if Dean used to beat Sam when they were kids. He had total control over Sam along with his father which I why I think Sam doesn't hit back. After all, Dean was both Sam's father and brother. As far as I know Sam never hit his father either. Is the reason he doesn't fight back because he's used to this kind of treatment?
If that is the case, then Dean is an abuser.

[JazzBeePrime]

Jan 23, 2012 18:03:17 GMT -5 DeanandSam said:

Alright I guess we can say Dean isn't an abuser per say. To some extent I think he is very violent. Take the pounding he gave soulless Sam for example. He punched him over 14 times, I think, it's probably less, I can't remember. Now we know it wasn't Sam, but it was still Sam's body that Dean was causing harm too. He kept punching and punching without being shy of doing that. Does that excuse Dean just because it wasn't really Sam? I think Dean kept on punching him because Dean was just fed up and frustrated. Having his brother back and thinking he is A-okay, than to find out that he wasn't. Another moment in Dean's life where nothing is simple enough, it's always hard. So punching soul-less Sam at that point was him venting his emotions, but also trying to get Soul-less Sam to become unconscious. But it was still hard to watch, because it was still Sam's body, and still Sam, just Sam without his soul. What do you think?

sorry, i have to disagree. when veritas realized and vocalized that sam wasnt what he seemed, i think it was a shock to dean. i think he immediately believed that it was a monster pretending to be his brother. he asked over again, "who/what are you". i think in dean's mind, he wasnt attacking his brother, he was attacking something pretending to be his brother. at this point, dean had no idea that it was his brother's body minus his soul. so i think if sam can be given the benefit of the doubt for things he's done, its only fair dean can be given the benefit of the doubt. he thought he was KICKING A MONSTER'S ASS, NOT HIS BABY BROTHER'S.
i really wish people would stop trying to make dean out to be some out of control,violent person because that's not who he is. he's no more violent then sammy is.

[DeanandSam]

Jan 23, 2012 21:24:11 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

Jan 23, 2012 18:03:17 GMT -5 DeanandSam said:

Alright I guess we can say Dean isn't an abuser per say. To some extent I think he is very violent. Take the pounding he gave soulless Sam for example. He punched him over 14 times, I think, it's probably less, I can't remember. Now we know it wasn't Sam, but it was still Sam's body that Dean was causing harm too. He kept punching and punching without being shy of doing that. Does that excuse Dean just because it wasn't really Sam? I think Dean kept on punching him because Dean was just fed up and frustrated. Having his brother back and thinking he is A-okay, than to find out that he wasn't. Another moment in Dean's life where nothing is simple enough, it's always hard. So punching soul-less Sam at that point was him venting his emotions, but also trying to get Soul-less Sam to become unconscious. But it was still hard to watch, because it was still Sam's body, and still Sam, just Sam without his soul. What do you think?

sorry, i have to disagree. when veritas realized and vocalized that sam wasnt what he seemed, i think it was a shock to dean. i think he immediately believed that it was a monster pretending to be his brother. he asked over again, "who/what are you". i think in dean's mind, he wasnt attacking his brother, he was attacking something pretending to be his brother. at this point, dean had no idea that it was his brother's body minus his soul. so i think if sam can be given the benefit of the doubt for things he's done, its only fair dean can be given the benefit of the doubt. he thought he was KICKING A MONSTER'S ASS, NOT HIS BABY BROTHER'S.
i really wish people would stop trying to make dean out to be some out of control,violent person because that's not who he is. he's no more violent then sammy is.

Well, you can do that to Sam if you want, but this topic is about Dean and his violent way in communicating. Sam is no better in the way he lashes out, But Sam tends to lash out with words and yelling, Dean does it with his fist more times than not.

I will have to disagree with you about saying Dean thought he was beating a monster and not his brother. Before Dean layed the smack down on Sam, Sam gave him the full puppy look, and telling him he needed help and he didn't think there was anything wrong with him. He asked for help and Dean helped him by practically bashing his face in.

I love the character of Dean, Dean and Sam for that matter, but it is justified to talk about their weaknesses. They are after all human with flaws.

[JazzBeePrime]

Jan 23, 2012 20:55:18 GMT -5 1027phoenix said:

I agree with the posters who said it is wrong to punch someone just because you don't agree with something they've said or done.
What makes it worse for me is it makes me wonder if Dean used to beat Sam when they were kids. He had total control over Sam along with his father which I why I think Sam doesn't hit back. After all, Dean was both Sam's father and brother. As far as I know Sam never hit his father either. Is the reason he doesn't fight back because he's used to this kind of treatment?
If that is the case, then Dean is an abuser.

HOLY CRAP ON A STICK! REALLY!? WHEN THE HELL HAS DEAN EVER HAD CONTROL OVER SAM? THE ANSWER: NEVER. dean went out of his way to make sure sam had some semblence of a childhood. he honored sam's request to stay away while he was at stanford. sam isn't some wilting flower. he voices his opinions, he's stood upto john, he's stood upto dean, he fights back when he feels he has to.if dean had 'total control' over sam, he wouldn't have stood up for himself. he wouldn't have taken off on his own with such confidence.please stop trying to make the boys out to be something they are not. dean is not an abuser and sam isn't a whipped puppy.

[DeanandSam]

Jan 23, 2012 21:33:22 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

Jan 23, 2012 20:55:18 GMT -5 1027phoenix said:

I agree with the posters who said it is wrong to punch someone just because you don't agree with something they've said or done.
What makes it worse for me is it makes me wonder if Dean used to beat Sam when they were kids. He had total control over Sam along with his father which I why I think Sam doesn't hit back. After all, Dean was both Sam's father and brother. As far as I know Sam never hit his father either. Is the reason he doesn't fight back because he's used to this kind of treatment?
If that is the case, then Dean is an abuser.

HOLY CRAP ON A STICK! REALLY!? WHEN THE HELL HAS DEAN EVER HAD CONTROL OVER SAM? THE ANSWER: NEVER. dean went out of his way to make sure sam had some semblence of a childhood. he honored sam's request to stay away while he was at stanford. sam isn't some wilting flower. he voices his opinions, he's stood upto john, he's stood upto dean, he fights back when he feels he has to.if dean had 'total control' over sam, he wouldn't have stood up for himself. he wouldn't have taken off on his own with such confidence.please stop trying to make the boys out to be something they are not. dean is not an abuser and sam isn't a whipped puppy.

Well I agree with this

Dean is a protector of Sam and fears for his life constantly, but Sam always had a independence streak in which Dean can't do anything about. There has been many instances in the show where Dean tries to take control of Sam, but Sam never lets that happen because he has made up his mind about something.

[Aeryn]

Jan 23, 2012 20:55:18 GMT -5 1027phoenix said:

I agree with the posters who said it is wrong to punch someone just because you don't agree with something they've said or done.

*punches phoenix*

[JazzBeePrime]

deanandsam, i'm going to have to agree to disagree with you. i did not see dean beating the crap out of his baby brother, i saw dean beating the crap out of something he thought was pretending to be his brother. i also don't see dean beating the crap out of sam every freaking epi. he's given sam the right hook every once in a blue effing moon. some of you seem adamant to make it seem as tho dean does it all the damn time. you don't care for the character of dean, that's fine. just stop trying to make the character out to be something he's not. you guys don't like it when others do it to sam, so stop doing it to dean.

[DeanandSam]

Jan 23, 2012 21:40:09 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

deanandsam, i'm going to have to agree to disagree with you. i did not see dean beating the crap out of his baby brother, i saw dean beating the crap out of something he thought was pretending to be his brother. i also don't see dean beating the crap out of sam every freaking epi. he's given sam the right hook every once in a blue effing moon. some of you seem adamant to make it seem as tho dean does it all the damn time. you don't care for the character of dean, that's fine. just stop trying to make the character out to be something he's not. you guys don't like it when others do it to sam, so stop doing it to dean.

I love Dean, how dare you Jazz

Dean doesn't do it every episode, but he has done it plenty of times that would make some viewers, like me, make a thread about it because I was curious in what others thought.

[JazzBeePrime]

forget just sicking one autobot on some of your asses, i'm sending the whole damn team

[DeanandSam]

Jan 23, 2012 21:43:11 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

forget just sicking one autobot on some of your asses, i'm sending the whole damn team

You are being a meanie I am smiting you

[JazzBeePrime]

Jan 23, 2012 21:42:57 GMT -5 DeanandSam said:

Jan 23, 2012 21:40:09 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

deanandsam, i'm going to have to agree to disagree with you. i did not see dean beating the crap out of his baby brother, i saw dean beating the crap out of something he thought was pretending to be his brother. i also don't see dean beating the crap out of sam every freaking epi. he's given sam the right hook every once in a blue effing moon. some of you seem adamant to make it seem as tho dean does it all the damn time. you don't care for the character of dean, that's fine. just stop trying to make the character out to be something he's not. you guys don't like it when others do it to sam, so stop doing it to dean.

I love Dean, how dare you Jazz

Dean doesn't do it every episode, but he has done it plenty of times that would make some viewers, like me, make a thread about it because I was curious in what others thought.

how dare me? i'm not the one complimenting dean in one breath, then questioning whether he's an abuser in the next. for me, this whole topic is just flat out absurd. neither boy is abusive. they are (fictional) characters who live in a completely different world, and deal with things in their own ways. over the course of 7 years, the number of times dean has bitchslapped sam does not justify tossing around the term 'abusive'. just as the number of times sam has verbally bitchslapped dean does not justify tossing around that same term.

[JazzBeePrime]

smite away, doesn't hurt my feelings any

[DeanandSam]

Jan 23, 2012 21:50:49 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

Jan 23, 2012 21:42:57 GMT -5 DeanandSam said:

I love Dean, how dare you Jazz

Dean doesn't do it every episode, but he has done it plenty of times that would make some viewers, like me, make a thread about it because I was curious in what others thought.

how dare me? i'm not the one complimenting dean in one breath, then questioning whether he's an abuser in the next. for me, this whole topic is just flat out absurd. neither boy is abusive. they are (fictional) characters who live in a completely different world, and deal with things in their own ways. over the course of 7 years, the number of times dean has bitchslapped sam does not justify tossing around the term 'abusive'. just as the number of times sam has verbally bitchslapped dean does not justify tossing around that same term.

It's alright. I understand what you are talking about. And while I agree I also disagree. Drinking buddies?

Also I am the most unpopular person here -1

[isitfridayyet]

Jan 23, 2012 21:50:49 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

Jan 23, 2012 21:42:57 GMT -5 DeanandSam said:

I love Dean, how dare you Jazz

Dean doesn't do it every episode, but he has done it plenty of times that would make some viewers, like me, make a thread about it because I was curious in what others thought.

how dare me? i'm not the one complimenting dean in one breath, then questioning whether he's an abuser in the next. for me, this whole topic is just flat out absurd. neither boy is abusive. they are (fictional) characters who live in a completely different world, and deal with things in their own ways. over the course of 7 years, the number of times dean has bitchslapped sam does not justify tossing around the term 'abusive'. just as the number of times sam has verbally bitchslapped dean does not justify tossing around that same term.

Yesssssssss!

[isitfridayyet]

Jan 23, 2012 21:39:58 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Jan 23, 2012 20:55:18 GMT -5 1027phoenix said:

I agree with the posters who said it is wrong to punch someone just because you don't agree with something they've said or done.

*punches phoenix*

*pats Aeryn* use your words not your fist!

[Aeryn]

Illyria's very cool, yes. But the avatar I have now seriously turns me on.

[isitfridayyet]

Jan 23, 2012 23:41:37 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Illyria's very cool, yes. But the avatar I have now seriously turns me on.

It makes me wanna go to church...and that's serious.

[Aeryn]

Really? I think its fucking HOT. I'm totally not kidding!

[isitfridayyet]

Maybe it's because they remind me of this:


I'm terrified of clowns. They're fucked up looking. My friend was into this band and he used to scare me with their pictures and music. I will never forget walking into his house into the dark living room and turning on the TV where those two dudes were laughing hysterically and talking about cutting peoples throats..and the volume was on like...80.

Color me traumatized!

[MariaARIS3]

Jan 23, 2012 18:39:21 GMT -5 Aeryn said:

Jan 23, 2012 17:35:05 GMT -5 MariaARIS3 said:

Is that Aeryn's head you're smashing with the hammer?

You'd like that, wouldn't you?

Hell yeah!!!

[MariaARIS3]

Jan 23, 2012 16:00:25 GMT -5 JazzBeePrime said:

just as sam will say some harsh things to dean ( and no, sam isnt always under some spell or addiction when he says them.)

I would really appreciate it -and I'm not saying it with any sarcasm at all- if you could bring some examples where Sam said hurtful things to Dean, besides the time he was under the Siren's spell, because honestly as much as I tried, I can't remember a single time. Some of my examples for Dean though:
-In Metamorphosis, when he told Sam that if he didn't know him, he would wanna hunt him
-WTLB, where he told him that he was a monster
-Sympathy For The Devil, when he told him that he can't trust him anymore
-PONR, in the beginning when Sam tells him that he has to stop him, he tells him "you're not hooked up on demon blood this time" and later in the panic room he tells him that he doesn't have faith in him and that he thinks that eventually Sam will say "yes" to Lucifer

I could mention some more, but these are the worst for me. Because in all these scenes you could see Sam tearing up after listening to Dean telling him those things. (In SFTD he didn't exactly tear up, but you could see the pain in his eyes and how his look instantly changed)

[HopeNeverDies]

I voted no.

I haven't went through and read all the replies but I'll give the example of my husband who is the second oldest of five brothers. There have been times where he and his brothers have hit one another or have thrown verbal jabs at one another due to various reasons, but I would never consider them to be abusive to one another. I don't think Dean has been physically abusive in any sort of consistent manner. I think there's been a few times where he's blown up at Sam and punched him but I don't think he's abusive. Now is he an alcohol abuser? Definitely

[pentadactyl]

I don't think the relationship is abusive.

It's difficult for me to exactly describe why I don't see it as such. I think, at least from our lay perspective, that it's a much more subjective matter than it's been treated as at times in this discussion. That is, I don't think it's abusive, but I think this attitude that that's something that can be proven by some hard and fast rule of 'this is what an abuser is' and 'this is what a victim is' is too simplistic. People come in many shades and so do relationships.

I don't think 'abusers don't love their victims' works as a rule that applies in every single case. People have screwed up emotions and screwed up definitions of love. And if you're messed up enough to abuse someone, I'd bet even higher that your emotions get even messier and more nonsensical.

Other people have mentioned that 'the victim doesn't mind' and 'the victim can take it' are flawed rules too.

I'm not sure I buy 'that's what men do' either. All my life I've only once seen a guy take a swing and he was so drunk he couldn't stand. I'll allow that I'm a nerd and mostly hang out with other nerds. But I think of most of the guys I know and I think getting punched in the face would be a big deal and them punching someone in the face would be a big deal. I don't think it works to just dismiss it offhand as 'a guy thing'.

Maybe it's a TV thing. I don't know if I wouldn't think a abusive relationship if it weren't fictional. I suspect I still wouldn't, but I could believe that was a factor.


Speaking of television exaggerating violence, this latest season has at times reveled in Dean's violent nature that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with. In the past, whether or not he should have, what it means for the relationship and other questions aside, I've mostly felt that the punches were appropriate to the reaction they were trying to get from the audience. I felt the aim was to shock, to emphasize the gravity of the situation. This year, it's felt like what they're going for is a cheer. The punch in TGND, the threat against the new age cafe guy, the organ donation guy. Every time, I felt like they were trying to get me to throw my fist in the air and say "Yeah!!" and that wasn't what I was feeling at all.

[HopeNeverDies]

Jan 24, 2012 1:21:00 GMT -5 @pentadactyl said:

Speaking of television exaggerating violence, this latest season has at times reveled in Dean's violent nature that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with. In the past, whether or not he should have, what it means for the relationship and other questions aside, I've mostly felt that the punches were appropriate to the reaction they were trying to get from the audience. I felt the aim was to shock, to emphasize the gravity of the situation. This year, it's felt like what they're going for is a cheer. The punch in TGND, the threat against the new age cafe guy, the organ donation guy. Every time, I felt like they were trying to get me to throw my fist in the air and say "Yeah!!" and that wasn't what I was feeling at all.

I think the purpose of showing Dean's violent side this season has been to show his state of mind after losing so many people he cares about and to be facing another seemingly indestructible foe. I think Dean has slowing been changing into a guy with a major chip on his shoulder (and rightfully so) who doesn't care about hurting himself anymore or hurting others. I'm hoping that part of his storyarc will be the restoration of his happy self who loves to hunt (more like his pre-season 4 self or at least pre mid-season 5 self).

[isitfridayyet]

Hey Naptime!

[JazzBeePrime]

i will gladly go thru every epi sam has ever verbally bitchslapped dean in. it won't be until later on because it's 2:45 in the morning and i'm going to bed. i will start off with 1 example that comes to mind tho. it was back in s1, in the epi "phantom traveler". dean proudly shows sam the homemade emf device he made. sam responds by making dean feel like a complete idiot. the look on dean's face says it all, he was hurt by sam's reaction. hell, even in the pilot epi, sam turns to dean and says, "dad let you hunt alone?" dean was taken aback by the comment and was like, 'uh,yea. i'm 26 years old sam, i'm a big boy and capable of hunting on my own.' it may not seem like a big deal to you, but the way dean reacts to those types of comments, it's obvious that it hurts him. i'll go thru my dvd's later on and come up with some more, because there are more. i'm not saying sam is a mean brother or a dick, i'm just trying to point out that he counters dean's occasional closed fist bitchslap, with verbal bitchslaps. it's just how these two operate. neither one is abusive to the other.